EV (electric vehicle) News & Discussion

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2340 posts

Uber Geek

#3323526 23-Dec-2024 10:27

fastbike:

I find it quite weird that people refuse to accept what is happening right in front of them, and insist that mother nature has to come to bargaining table so we are not inconvenienced.

the human experience is always interesting. people won't do anything until it bites them in the rear.

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robjg63

4090 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#3323546 23-Dec-2024 11:33

tweake:
fastbike:

I find it quite weird that people refuse to accept what is happening right in front of them, and insist that mother nature has to come to bargaining table so we are not inconvenienced.

the human experience is always interesting. people won't do anything until it bites them in the rear.

Or bite themselves in the rear and blame everyone else.

Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself - A. H. Weiler

deepred

485 posts

Ultimate Geek

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Trusted

#3323712 23-Dec-2024 16:17

Handsomedan:

SaltyNZ:

johno1234:

You only wear the depreciation when you sell it. I typically buy a car at 2 years old and drive it for 10. The depreciation is never that bad on on a per km basis.

Yeah my last two cars were sold to the wreckers. I don’t expect depreciation to be a massive issue.

I don't think you've really experienced depreciation until you've owned a Euro.
I bought my Volvo for $14k, at 5 years old (original sticker price new was $110k) and sold it 8 years later for $2500, shortly after spending $8k on it for critical repairs.
I would have kept it, but the gearbox was the next on the list of things that my mechanic really didn't want to have to look at...and I got a company car.

If I haven't previously mentioned it, a good rule of thumb for Euro cars, especially luxury ones, is that if a new one is too expensive, then an old one is too expensive. The rapid depreciation is likely down to the inversely proportional repair bill caused by there being a lot more moving parts than the average Asian car.

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johno1234

2733 posts

Uber Geek

#3323716 23-Dec-2024 16:28

Handsomedan:

I don't think you've really experienced depreciation until you've owned a Euro.
I bought my Volvo for $14k, at 5 years old (original sticker price new was $110k) and sold it 8 years later for $2500, shortly after spending $8k on it for critical repairs.
I would have kept it, but the gearbox was the next on the list of things that my mechanic really didn't want to have to look at...and I got a company car.

Volvo are a special category all on their own. XC90 transmissions never used to make it past 100k.

HarmLessSolutions

956 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#3323717 23-Dec-2024 16:35

shk292:
dafman:

Is EV ownership expensive relative to ICE?

No subsidies on either to purchase.

For road user tax, one pays fuel tax at the pump (ICE), the other pays via road user chargers.

Seems pretty balanced to me. Maybe, taking into account service costs over life, EV have the slight edge?

Note to Mod, no politics in this post, just a cost comparison (-;

The big difference is depreciation. EVs only seem less expensive if you ignore that. I'm sure that as the technology matures, depreciation will revert to normal for these cars and their true cost of ownership will be affordable.

The depreciation on EVs isn't disproportionate compared to upmarket 'luxury' European ICEVs as far as I can see.

How much of the fuss about EV depreciation can be related to buyers of the first wave of EVs being more familiar with formerly being buyers of mid price ICEVs but tempted into EVs by incentives or them just being the new fashionable vehicle to own and are now discovering the realities of purchasing new, upmarket, first generation products and the expected risks for early adopters?

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

HarmLessSolutions

956 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#3323721 23-Dec-2024 16:50

dafman:

Is EV ownership expensive relative to ICE?

No subsidies on either to purchase.

For road user tax, one pays fuel tax at the pump (ICE), the other pays via road user chargers.

Seems pretty balanced to me. Maybe, taking into account service costs over life, EV have the slight edge?

Note to Mod, no politics in this post, just a cost comparison (-;

The major day to day difference is 'fuel' cost, particularly for EVs that are charged at home and particularly from solar.

My own calculations show ~3.3c/km for our Polestar2 home charged at night rates or lost FIT (1c/kWh difference between the two). Public charging at 85c vs 18c/kWh brings that up to 15.5c/km (@5.5km/kWh) which when RUC is added in brings running cost up to ~23c/km which is close to petrol price for a petrol ICEV.

The whole universal RUC situation on the horizon has been discussed to death but will probably come as a rude shock to most petrol car owners, particularly those with hybrids.

The maintenance cost comparison falls in favour of EVs purely due to less moving parts and the whole situation in this respect won't become clear until today's EVs reach 10+ years old. Until then it's only the unfortunate outliers that will cop a raw deal due to poor parts availability and lack of technical know how by dealers but these cases will no doubt be used as antiEV clickbait by the naysayers.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

Technofreak

6527 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#3323728 23-Dec-2024 17:03

morrisk:

We must continue to implement at pace the measures that we know do reduce emissions. One of the proven ways is to stop burning coal, oil and gas. Of course there are consequences to this but we can work out how to manage that and the management of such inconveniences is the better choice that having to deal with the sudden and unplanned impacts of fires, storms etc that we are seeing regularly today.

No argument with your comment about coal oil and gas. Where I have a problem is with the green washing that goes on, for example not burning "clean" Huntly coal but instead importing "dirty" Indonesian? coal. Dirty for two reason, I understand the coal burns dirtier plus bunker oil is burned to get it here. Apparently this reduces our emissions (the emssions from the coal apprarently are accounted for where the coal is mined) helping us meet our target but the outcome for the planet is worse overall.

The way I see it a lot of the efforts to reduce emissions are really just rearranging the deck chairs to create an illusion of doing something positive when the reality is anything but positive. Which was really the point of my other post.

New Zealand is one of the few countries where electric cars do reduce overall emissions (disregarding the discussions about emissions created during manufacture). In many countries they're just burn coal oil or gas in one place to make electricity to be used in en EV at some other place. While there may be some small gains this is really rearranging the deck chairs yet again.

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tweake

2340 posts

Uber Geek

#3323729 23-Dec-2024 17:05

HarmLessSolutions:

The major day to day difference is 'fuel' cost, particularly for EVs that are charged at home and particularly from solar.

the solar part interests me.

this is where i think the cheaper batteries will come into to play. (eg sodium etc). being able to recharge from your own power production, or from cheap night store rates. also i suspect you could run fast chargers off the battery system. this gets around grid issues and local supply bottle necks.

fastbike

202 posts

Master Geek

#3323735 23-Dec-2024 17:25

Technofreak:

No argument with your comment about coal oil and gas. Where I have a problem is with the green washing that goes on, for example not burning "clean" Huntly coal but instead importing "dirty" Indonesian? coal. Dirty for two reason, I understand the coal burns dirtier plus bunker oil is burned to get it here. Apparently this reduces our emissions (the emssions from the coal apprarently are accounted for where the coal is mined) helping us meet our target but the outcome for the planet is worse overall.

The way I see it a lot of the efforts to reduce emissions are really just rearranging the deck chairs to create an illusion of doing something positive when the reality is anything but positive. Which was really the point of my other post.

New Zealand is one of the few countries where electric cars do reduce overall emissions (disregarding the discussions about emissions created during manufacture). In many countries they're just burn coal oil or gas in one place to make electricity to be used in en EV at some other place. While there may be some small gains this is really rearranging the deck chairs yet again.

You're casting around for justifications there. Emissions are counted in the country where the fossil fuel is consumed - which is why we have such high emissions (we actually produce very little FF, but use a huge amount per capita).

As far as the Huntly thermal station, all coal is dirty.Figures from MBIE show 1,031 GWhr from coal, out of 43,488 total net generation. So around 2%.

I recall seeing an infographic showing energy sources on the left, and uses on the right. Coal was a tint fraction, however along with all other FF roughly 75% of the energy is wasted as heat when burnt.

Secondly, things are changing at pace. When I lived in UK 25 years ago we used to joke about it being the dirty "man" of Europe. They now have days where their grid is mainly wind powered. Australia has a problem with excess solar at times - the reason being they incentivised rooftop solar so they did not have to rebuild aging coal fired power stations. The US has a huge solar and wind program under the Inflation Reduction Act that Biden initiated.

Thirdly, we previously had programs to incentivise industry to decarbonise. The NZ Steel project is a great example. Replacing a shitty old coal fired furnace with a modern electric one has provided better quality product along with a reduction on emissions, and secured good jobs. Those programs got axed unfortunately.

I'm really not sure what your alternative plan is, because you're not explaining it very well.

Otautahi Christchurch

fastbike

202 posts

Master Geek

#3323736 23-Dec-2024 17:27

tweake:

HarmLessSolutions:

The major day to day difference is 'fuel' cost, particularly for EVs that are charged at home and particularly from solar.

the solar part interests me.

this is where i think the cheaper batteries will come into to play. (eg sodium etc). being able to recharge from your own power production, or from cheap night store rates. also i suspect you could run fast chargers off the battery system. this gets around grid issues and local supply bottle necks.

We really need to get V2X up and running in this backward little country. My car is capable but the electrical regs won't allow it.

Otautahi Christchurch

tweake

2340 posts

Uber Geek

#3323739 23-Dec-2024 17:47

fastbike:

We really need to get V2X up and running in this backward little country. My car is capable but the electrical regs won't allow it.

i assume you meaning the ev powering the grid at times. i don't really see it as a big deal, more of a nice to have. once you have a nice big home battery would V2X do a whole lot ?

last thing i would want to do is deplete the car battery and loose my transportation.

dafman

3919 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#3323747 23-Dec-2024 18:06

johno1234:

Handsomedan:

I don't think you've really experienced depreciation until you've owned a Euro.
I bought my Volvo for $14k, at 5 years old (original sticker price new was $110k) and sold it 8 years later for $2500, shortly after spending $8k on it for critical repairs.
I would have kept it, but the gearbox was the next on the list of things that my mechanic really didn't want to have to look at...and I got a company car.

Volvo are a special category all on their own. XC90 transmissions never used to make it past 100k.

Volvo is a Euro?

Funny, me thinks. Volvo, Jaguar, Range Rover - perceived prestige brands purchased by people that wouldn’t be seen dead in a Japanese car. Now buying Chinese cars.

fastbike

202 posts

Master Geek

#3323750 23-Dec-2024 18:28

tweake:

fastbike:

We really need to get V2X up and running in this backward little country. My car is capable but the electrical regs won't allow it.

i assume you meaning the ev powering the grid at times. i don't really see it as a big deal, more of a nice to have. once you have a nice big home battery would V2X do a whole lot ?

last thing i would want to do is deplete the car battery and loose my transportation.

Sure. It is part of the solution. Enabling people to store excess power from the grid and then release a small portion during peak demand. The tech is there, the regs need to catch up (AS/NZS allows it but NZ electricity regs are stuck on old versions). And we need the market to enable participants e.g. I would like to see some of my EV battery storage to my neighbour.

Regarding nice big home batteries, you and I might be able to finance a battery (I still think they are a net $$ sink) and might have the solar installation to power it. But you won't get wide spread adoption quickly for a variety of reasons: $$, logistics, lack of trained installers, etc. So they are another part of the solution, not an alternative to V2X.

Otautahi Christchurch

HarmLessSolutions

956 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#3323797 23-Dec-2024 18:42

fastbike:

I recall seeing an infographic showing energy sources on the left, and uses on the right. Coal was a tint fraction, however along with all other FF roughly 75% of the energy is wasted as heat when burnt.

The best visualisation of that I've seen is this one:

It seems they have only done the 2017 one for New Zealand and it would be interesting to see an updated version. It certainly highlights the proportion of wasted ("rejected") energy from the transport sector. Electrifying transport is a huge opportunity for mitigating this.

Also the suggestion of importing LNG for electricity generation recently would come at a huge emissions cost as the processing and transportation inputs apparently make it 'dirtier' than coal. Good thing then that the generators who the government expect to stump up for the port facilities to make LNG possible are totally averse to investing in this scheme.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

HarmLessSolutions

956 posts

Ultimate Geek

Subscriber

#3323803 23-Dec-2024 18:59

tweake:

fastbike:

We really need to get V2X up and running in this backward little country. My car is capable but the electrical regs won't allow it.

i assume you meaning the ev powering the grid at times. i don't really see it as a big deal, more of a nice to have. once you have a nice big home battery would V2X do a whole lot ?

last thing i would want to do is deplete the car battery and loose my transportation.

Sigenergy have the latest hot item in the home battery landscape. Stackable modular battery, inverter & DC EV charger but at somewhere over $30K the option of using a typically much larger capacity battery with wheels (V2G) seems like better value. The AS/NZS 4777.1:2024 standard being rolled out in Australia ATM, and New Zealand soon, includes provision for V2X and has the Aussie solar and EV boffins buzzing as a result.

There is plenty of clever tech available to control use of EV battery charge and scheduling that is capable of matching cheap import from the grid and export at optimum peak rates. And the ability to use an EV to 'bring electricity home' from a public charger in the case of a prolonged power outage really appeals, or a V2G set-up with blackout provision so that solar can be of benefit during a grid outage.

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

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