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  Reply # 1606396 8-Aug-2016 15:57
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Of interest on the subject of HVs:

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/82866601/sewage-fuels-hydrogenpowered-cars-in-japan

 

TL;DR = turning bio-gas emitted by organic waste into hydrogen for cars.





Mike

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  Reply # 1606592 8-Aug-2016 20:44
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MikeAqua:

 

 

 

TL;DR = turning bio-gas emitted by organic waste into hydrogen for cars.

 

 

Very much at the pilot plant stage. Cost's $160 to produce one KG of hydrogen, which they sell for $11.

 

It's not like the bio-gas gets wasted. Generally it is used to run generators, to feed back into the grid. That said, I am all for finding higher value applications.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1606599 8-Aug-2016 20:55
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We have so much cattle and sheep - can't we make cars run on their crap? (well even if they could I won't unless it's sterilised!)


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  Reply # 1606710 9-Aug-2016 09:00
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joker97:

 

Linuxluver:

 

And we will be happy to use hydrogen tanks made in China........because they'll be cheaper, right? :-(  

 

 

It could be that the only way that EV uptake works is that China start making them to drive the price down ... ?

 

 

They are hard out making electric vehicles in China and Korea, and they have high demand for cleaner transportation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_industry_in_China





:)


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  Reply # 1606713 9-Aug-2016 09:05
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joker97:

 

We have so much cattle and sheep - can't we make cars run on their crap? (well even if they could I won't unless it's sterilised!)

 

 

 
A bit O/T but yes, manure/effluent management in NZ farming's becoming a big issue.
We looked at a methane production setup (anaerobic digester) on a Hutterite pig farm in Western Canada years ago. The gas was used on site for heating.
Over there, intensive pen/feedlot/factory farming with a centralised manure collection system is way more common than the extensive type of animal farming common in NZ.
It was a subsidised pilot plant, but even in that situation, I think the cost-effectiveness turned out to be marginal.

The problem is that fossil fuels (piped natural gas on that site) are just so cheap..

 

 


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  Reply # 1606741 9-Aug-2016 09:36
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joker97:

 

We have so much cattle and sheep - can't we make cars run on their crap? ...

 

 

Why the intermediate step? Streamline the process. This winter it could work for parts of the South Island :-) :

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 1606843 9-Aug-2016 11:00
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Scott3:

 

MikeAqua:

 

 

 

TL;DR = turning bio-gas emitted by organic waste into hydrogen for cars.

 

 

Very much at the pilot plant stage. Cost's $160 to produce one KG of hydrogen, which they sell for $11.

 

It's not like the bio-gas gets wasted. Generally it is used to run generators, to feed back into the grid. That said, I am all for finding higher value applications.

 

 

Some landfills are capped and bio-gas collected and used but what about sewage plants.  Mostly not.

 

Effluent and oxidation ponds out-gas methane from the sediments to some extent.  Currently this vents to atmosphere.  It should be captured and used.  That's a source of methane we can do something about.

 

Oxidation ponds have to maintain a tricky balance between mass of organic matter, aeration and water volume.

 

They could be replaced with more stabled anaerobic processes that produce usable bio-gas

 

Use the gas for electricity now including early EV adopters and HVs in the future.

 

Ultimately I think HVs will beat EVs.

 

Hydrogen is >100MJ/kg.  It's abundant.  Thermodynamics are on your side. Maybe a little too much on your side!  The challenge is containment.  Solar power can be used to produce it from water.

 

Batteries right now are <5 MJ/kg.  Thermodynamics are not on your side.

 

The greatest medium term hope for battery powered EVs is that manufacturers develop standardised swappable main batteries.  Then drivers could use service stations that swap the battery over while they have a coffee and snack.





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  Reply # 1606847 9-Aug-2016 11:04
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MikeAqua:

 

 

 

The greatest medium term hope for battery powered EVs is that manufacturers develop standardised swappable main batteries.  Then drivers could use service stations that swap the battery over while they have a coffee and snack.

 

 

I nearly posted something like this the other day. I think it's a great idea, similar to the Gas Bottle Swaps, but wonder how hard it would be for all the manufacturers to get on board. Also, someone with more knowledge than I might be able to tell me the weight of such a battery? Otherwise, I think this would be a winner. If the existing market wants to compete with Tesla, this could be a very good option, if the Euro or Japanese manufacturers all agreed on a standard and rolled it out? This way, it takes out the delays of waiting for a charge, and could be as quick as a refuel anyhow?


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  Reply # 1606857 9-Aug-2016 11:18
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NzBeagle:

 

MikeAqua:

 

 The greatest medium term hope for battery powered EVs is that manufacturers develop standardised swappable main batteries.  Then drivers could use service stations that swap the battery over while they have a coffee and snack.

 

 

I nearly posted something like this the other day. I think it's a great idea, similar to the Gas Bottle Swaps, but wonder how hard it would be for all the manufacturers to get on board. Also, someone with more knowledge than I might be able to tell me the weight of such a battery? Otherwise, I think this would be a winner. If the existing market wants to compete with Tesla, this could be a very good option, if the Euro or Japanese manufacturers all agreed on a standard and rolled it out? This way, it takes out the delays of waiting for a charge, and could be as quick as a refuel anyhow?

 

 

I was thinking of oil changers when I write it.  Drive in and have a brew while you oil is changed.

 

The reality is I don't think manufacturers will collaborate enough to develop standardised batteries.  There may also be vehicle design reason why it wouldn't work.  But if possible it would address the recharge time, which is an issue for long trips.





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  Reply # 1607028 9-Aug-2016 15:27
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MikeB4:

 

 

 

But with Hydrogen Fuel Cell you don't need the looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong extension cord

 

 

With EVs about to have 400km range.....I won't need one anyway. :-) 

 

Still.....even the existing 24kw LEAF isn't a problem. I drove to Dargaville yesterday from Auckland. I left my house on about 80%. Got to Silverdale and spent 11 minutes charging to get back to 80%. This matched exactly the time it took me to buy a coffee and a bacon & egg pie for breakfast. Got to Kaiwaka....and spent 12 minutes charging to get back to 83%. This matched exactly the time spent in the nearby public toilets (morning, coffee, B&E pie....what can I say). 

 

I got to Dargaville on 20%. I plugged the car in and went for lunch at a nearby cafe. Unplugged the car and wandered around town for bit. I've never been to Dargaville. Nice place! 

 

Drove back to Kaiwaka and spent 14 minutes charging back up to 80%.....matched the time I spent in the 4 Square picking up a couple of things I'd forgotten to get at New World the previous evening.

 

Drove home......but stopped for 20 mins at Mcdonalds in Greenlane for a McCafe flat white.......and went home on 88%.  

 

This is how I normally travel anyway....about an hour..and then stop for 10-15 mins to look around, do whatever.

 

By the time I got home I'd driven about 380km....and arrived home on 88% ready to roll some more. Total cost to me was about $20 total at 3 x paid rapid chargers (Kaiwaka x 2 and Dargaville x 1). 

 

I don't know.....I found this easy, simply and cheap.....and the LEAF is such a joy to drive compared to eveyr other car I've owned......I loved every minute of it.

 

....and no emissions......but I did see some poorly maintained diesel trucks spewing black smoke up every hill on the highway between Mangaturoto and Dargaville. 

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1607032 9-Aug-2016 15:32
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NzBeagle:

 

MikeAqua:

 

 

 

The greatest medium term hope for battery powered EVs is that manufacturers develop standardised swappable main batteries.  Then drivers could use service stations that swap the battery over while they have a coffee and snack.

 

 

I nearly posted something like this the other day. I think it's a great idea, similar to the Gas Bottle Swaps, but wonder how hard it would be for all the manufacturers to get on board. Also, someone with more knowledge than I might be able to tell me the weight of such a battery? Otherwise, I think this would be a winner. If the existing market wants to compete with Tesla, this could be a very good option, if the Euro or Japanese manufacturers all agreed on a standard and rolled it out? This way, it takes out the delays of waiting for a charge, and could be as quick as a refuel anyhow?

 

 

It's a great idea.....I hope they work out a way to do it quickly and easily. 





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  Reply # 1607133 9-Aug-2016 17:06
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Linuxluver:

 

MikeB4:

 

 

 

But with Hydrogen Fuel Cell you don't need the looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong extension cord

 

 

With EVs about to have 400km range.....I won't need one anyway. :-) 

 

 

And there is the issue. 

 

If I want to go from Nelson to Hanmer for the weekend it's 300km each way.  Currently I do the return journey on a single tank.  That includes driving the gnarlier sections in 4WD and applying jandal when it's safe to do so in the open sections i.e. not being particularly economical.

 

The route is at times quite tortuous.  The altitude gain alone requires about 400 kW of energy.  Realistically one wouldn't won't risk this on a single charge in an EV. 

 

There is a charging station roughly halfway.  It isn't a high power charge station, it's a camp ground in Murchison .  To make it to Hamner you would need to charge to 100% (I'm guessing from about about 60%), so will be there for a while.

 

PITA. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





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  Reply # 1607155 9-Aug-2016 18:07
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MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:


MikeB4:


 


But with Hydrogen Fuel Cell you don't need the looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong extension cord



With EVs about to have 400km range.....I won't need one anyway. :-) 



And there is the issue. 


If I want to go from Nelson to Hanmer for the weekend it's 300km each way.  Currently I do the return journey on a single tank.  That includes driving the gnarlier sections in 4WD and applying jandal when it's safe to do so in the open sections i.e. not being particularly economical.


The route is at times quite tortuous.  The altitude gain alone requires about 400 kW of energy.  Realistically one wouldn't won't risk this on a single charge in an EV. 


There is a charging station roughly halfway.  It isn't a high power charge station, it's a camp ground in Murchison .  To make it to Hamner you would need to charge to 100% (I'm guessing from about about 60%), so will be there for a while.


PITA. 


 


 


 


 


 


I think the point is being missed. I ride a motorcycle, it requires filling up every 200km, I also quite often drive the same route. I have never had a problem factoring in stopping for fuel and taking breaks. I think people will make use of convenience, but I don't think they would miss it if it wasn't there.




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  Reply # 1607176 9-Aug-2016 18:48
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Nissan is looking to add onboard generation soon:

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/06/28/nissan-will-introduce-range-extender-in-new-compact-ev-soon/

(Warning: really slow load for some reason)

It's interesting how Nissan and Toyota came at the problem from opposite ends. Nissan a late starter in mass market ev went 100% electric and partially composite going one leap ahead of Toyota in some areas.

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  Reply # 1607215 9-Aug-2016 19:35
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MikeAqua:

 

 

 

Some landfills are capped and bio-gas collected and used but what about sewage plants.  Mostly not.

 

Effluent and oxidation ponds out-gas methane from the sediments to some extent.  Currently this vents to atmosphere.  It should be captured and used.  That's a source of methane we can do something about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

CCC do this, they put covers on the digesters about 30 years ago, recover methane which is used to run generators which power the plant, surplus power sold.  They used to power some council vehicles with "biogas".

 

I thought that the treatment plant in Mangere does the same?

 

 


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