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1233 posts

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  # 1703044 14-Jan-2017 08:30
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Sounds like the OP was considering buying a Holden Spark. I figure that because I spent several hours crunching numbers about whether savings in running costs vs current car would offset depreciation.

I was quite surprised that over a 3 year period I'd save $3200 on a few main things I looked at (petrol, reg, wof, timing belt), but I'm sure depreciation would be higher than that by about double - plus one probably needs to get it serviced regularly by Holden to maintain the 3 year 100K km warranty and I'd say that would cost a fair bit.



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Master Geek
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  # 1703066 14-Jan-2017 09:59
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Actually the Spark has not been on my radar.  Im wondering about the Sparks build quality compared to its Euro cousins.  Goodies are also important, and Holden seem to shy away from basic "safety" features like Xenon's.  Why doesnt  their latest model flagship Commodore even have xenon's...they have DRL's?  Im not sure of the Holden logic on this one...

 

Something European ticks more of my boxes....





I don't want no sugar in it - thank you very much

 
 
 
 


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  # 1703075 14-Jan-2017 10:34
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Holdens have DRLs because they want them to look pretty & Euro without spending more than $3 on parts.

 

People had been making their own around here for years (like chev badges on commodores) so Holden jumped on the bandwagon.

 

(I live about 25kms from the factory and every second car on the road here is a commodore)


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Master Geek
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  # 1703087 14-Jan-2017 11:18
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The cost of diesel isn't just dollars and cents. It comes with very real health consequences for yourself, your family and for others who have to breathe in the exhaust and had no say in your use of it.  

 

I absolutely understand that head-in-sand is the usual posture on this issue, but it should be understood as one of the costs of diesel. Or you're missing something important. 

 

 

 

 

Maybe you need to school up on the latest diesel engines made by the PSA Group (Peugeot and Citroen) who have been using a Particulate filter on all their vehicles since 2009. This filter eliminates 99.9% of particulates by number and 99% by weight!

 

Thats pretty impressive in my book, and makes the modern diesel engine look pretty good with its emission standards.

 

 

 

 

 

Unique performance in particulate emissions

 

Designed to eliminate all types of pollutant particulates emitted by diesel engines, including the finest, the PSA Group’s additive particulate filter eliminates 99.9% of particulates by number and 99% by weight. With this unique performance, the level of particulates exiting the filter is equivalent to that in a clean room (under 3,500 cm3).

 

Efficient technology in all circumstances and on all vehicles

 

The additive particulate filter has been fitted on all PSA Group vehicles since 2009 – two years before it was made obligatory by the Euro 5 standard. It is effective in all the operating conditions of a vehicle:

 

  • Start-up
  • Warm or cold
  • In cities and on motorways
  • Even when the filter is full

 

 

 

 


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  # 1703243 14-Jan-2017 17:21
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I started another thread where I was having my company removed and being be reimbursed per km and a salary increase.

 

The way I look at it now, the more fuel I can save, the more money in my pocket. I'm using about 3200L of petrol annually (Toyota Camry 8L per 100k) so if a diesel can beat that by 3L/100km (Skoda Octavia at 5.1L/100km) it would save me about $1000 per year. 

 

However I'm not sure if this is would offset higher servicing costs. Though when I was looking a few months ago Skoda were offering free servicing up to 100,000k.

 

When my current car gets close to the company's threshold for an aged vehicle I'll look at again, but I'll definitely be considering something more frugal.

 

Having said that, I can get the Camry into the 6's pretty easily. Just when I'm working in Auckland the economy gets blown out.


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  # 1703347 15-Jan-2017 02:06
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The basic equation for fuel cost + road tax is

Petrol: [L/100km]*[Cost of Petrol (say $1.85/L)]

 

Diesel [L/100km]*[Cost of Diesel (say $1.20/L)] + [Value RUC's (currently $6.20/100km)].

 

 

 

The fixed per km cost of the RUC's kills the economic feasibility of any diesels at the efficient end of the scale, while adding incentive for diesel engines for inefficient vehicles (cargo vans, massive SUV's etc).

For example a if a prius (rated 3.4L/100km petrol for the new one) running cost is roughly $6.29/100km (can it run 91 octane?), this is roughly the same as RUC's before you add any fuel use.

 

Fuel cost example comparison:

 

  • New Passat sedan TSI (132kW, 0-100:7.9s) @ 5.8L/100km petrol = $10.72/100km
  • New Passat sedan TDI (140kW, 0-100:7.7s) @ 4.6L/100km diesel = $11.72/100km
  • Current Camry hybrid (151kW, 0-100:8.1s) @ 5.2L/100km petrol = $9.62/100km i.e. Link
  • Last gen prius (slow) @ 3.8L/100km = $7.03/100km

 

 

In non fuel cost, rego for petrol cars is cheaper than diesel, and regular servicing is often cheaper & less frequent too.

Note the following

 

  • Fuel consumption of petrol cars goes up a lot more than that of diesel's if working hard (i.e. towing)
  • The comments that you hear about the reliability/durability of diesel engines compared to petrol engines don't apply any more. Things like turbos, Common rail fuel injection & exhaust gas treatment have made modern diesel complex and fragile compared to the diesels of old. High pressure fuel pumps cost thousands of dollars if they fail.
  • If you buy a diesel with a particulate filter, it needs to do a burn off cycle. Avoid if don't drive on the open road (or light traffic motorway) at least once a week (car needs about 10mins to clean its filter)
  • Toyota hybrids have a great reputation for reliability (GEN 2 / GEN 3 prius battery rarely fail), it is not a coincidence the bulk of the taxis in NZ are now toyota hybrids.
  • Hybrids have low tow ratings (prius = zero, camry hybrid = 300kg)

 

 

What is OP's use pattern? are those 1000's of km's per week a regular long commute, or intercity trips?

If the pattern is regular (and you can charge at work), there are some potential savings to be had from electric or plug in hybrid vehicles... (Nissan Leaf / BMW i3 / Holden Volt etc). If you could describe a typical week of driving that would help.




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  # 1703363 15-Jan-2017 09:03
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Hi Scott, 

 

Thanks for providing a pretty bulletproof calculation, this should be easy enough to plug some figures in.

 

in answer to your other questions, these K's are made up of a 109 commute each work day, so 220-ish per day, intercity trips.  

 

Charging in work COULD be something which may work? More research and questions to ask....

 

Perhaps you could answer something i brought up in a recent post, which is something i appear to be missing...?

 

The fuel figures on the EECA website...are they accurate and what would be expected?

 

Im getting some quite conflicting info and wondering what the deal is.

 

For example, 

 

I plug the details of my 2.0tdi Passat in and get 

 

My Passat 104 KW - 4.5 stars, 6.2l/100 and a cost of $2130 (plus RUC)

 

petrol Skoda VRS - 162kw - 4.5 stars, 6.4l/100 and a cost of $1790.....really?  And being petrol there in wouldn't be RUC to pay??!!

 

Diesel Skoda VRS - 135kw  - 5 stars, 5.0l/100 and a cost of $1880. Plus RUC...so a lot more in reality

 

So based on those figures the petrol VRS Skoda is the one to go for as its 100 or so bucks less and doesn't have the RUC....?





I don't want no sugar in it - thank you very much

518 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1703586 15-Jan-2017 16:32
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DickDastardly:

 

 

 

in answer to your other questions, these K's are made up of a 109 commute each work day, so 220-ish per day, intercity trips.  

 

Charging in work COULD be something which may work? More research and questions to ask....

 

 

 

 

Thats a lot of commuting, at 1100km a week. With your current car, that is $150 odd per week in fuel and RUC before you add in things like tires. If you work 48 weeks a year, that's around $7200 per year just in fuel and RUC... Not to mention other car running costs, or the value of your time...

I spose moving closer to work, changing jobs, telecommuting etc are all not feasible...

 

 

 

Electric cars fuel cost (electricity) would work out to around $50 per week (for 1100km of commuting), so $100 a week (or $4,800 a year) potential savings here... Well worth chasing if feasible. (based on 24c/kWh electricty price, so more savings to be had if you go with flick electric or similar

Basically at the numbers you quote, you would need to be able to charge at work (ideally at 14+ Amps or higher) to make this feasible.

Regarding intercity trips, is the 110km commute the only intercity trips you do?

First option here is a pure electric 30kWh Nissan leaf ($34k - $40k on trademe for 2015/2016 cars depending on spec) these have an epa rated range of 172km. The 24kWh variant is way cheaper but is only rated for 132km, too small a safety margin if you are driving home in the dark into a massive headwind (eats range), and driving rain... 

 

If you do additional intercity trips other than your commute, beyond the range of teh you would need to use the fast charging network (go to www.plugshare.com find NZ, and fllter by "High power stations" only. takes 20-30 minutes to charge to 80% from empty. Prob not feasable if you are traveling on company time, but good for the occasional personal trip.

As hatchbacks go, the leaf is quite a big one, and is much better to drive than the corolla etc... (check the seat comfort is sufficient though...). The battery makes it weigh similar to the likes of a rav-4 which is good for crash safety.

If you want to buy new, the hyundai iconic is launching soon (28kWh battery, $60k price tag).

The renault zoe 40kWh will be available in a few months (for I pick under $45k ex UK), with a 300km range. Likely it will be too small for your duty though.

Other option is a BMW i3 with a range extender (full disclosure, I am selling one). They sell above $50k, and have a 120 - 140km range (2017 model year has more range than this). They have a petrol generator under the boot floor, that you can start if the electric range is not enough...

The i3 has a carbon fiber body, rear wheel drive, 50% more power than the leaf etc. The car is very quick and smooth, and has heaps of interior space, but the seats may be a bit firm, and the steering heavy for regular 110km trips...


Short range PHEV's could also be worth a look.

A member of the EV owners page has a Audi A3 etron and uses it for a 280km daily commute... He averages 4.7L/100km of petrol (plus a bit of electricity), which isn't too bad (you could do better with your shorter commute - larger chunk on electric.

Budget on $1500 to have a hardwired charger installed in your garage, plus something like $300 to have a caravan socket installed at work (you can plug a portable charger into this)

 

DickDastardly:

 

 

 

Perhaps you could answer something i brought up in a recent post, which is something i appear to be missing...?

 

The fuel figures on the EECA website...are they accurate and what would be expected?

 

Im getting some quite conflicting info and wondering what the deal is.

 

For example, 

 

I plug the details of my 2.0tdi Passat in and get 

 

My Passat 104 KW - 4.5 stars, 6.2l/100 and a cost of $2130 (plus RUC)

 

petrol Skoda VRS - 162kw - 4.5 stars, 6.4l/100 and a cost of $1790.....really?  And being petrol there in wouldn't be RUC to pay??!!

 

Diesel Skoda VRS - 135kw  - 5 stars, 5.0l/100 and a cost of $1880. Plus RUC...so a lot more in reality

 

So based on those figures the petrol VRS Skoda is the one to go for as its 100 or so bucks less and doesn't have the RUC....?

 

 

https://www.eeca.govt.nz/standards-ratings-and-labels/vehicle-fuel-economy-labels/

 

 

 

Those EECA labels are based on you traveling 14,000km per year, and include RUC for diesel cars (no RUC is charged for petrol or LPG cars. Electric cars RUC's are temporarily zero rated.). For your annual mileage you will need to multiply this number by at least 3.5.

 

I worked backwards through the calc's to find the fuel price they are based on them (using 14000km/year, and ruc at $62/1000km):

 

Your car: $1.45/L

 

Petrol Skoda: $2.00/L

 

Diesel skoda:$1.44/L

 

 

 

 

 

The results seem feasible, although the fuel price inputs (especially diesel) seem a bit high. That said I have only just got back to NZ, and international media has generally been talking about rising fuel prices.

For course if you knew where fuel prices were going to go in the next few years, you should be making big bucks in the futures markets, not chasing mear thousands in vehicle running cost savings...


 

While those Skoda RS's look very nice in blue, but I would recommend taking the Camry hybrid I linked to for a test drive...

If I was spending the amount of time you are in a car, I would be looking for a cushy cruiser. Features like Low profile tires and sports suspension are good for handling, but the trade off is a rougher ride (and increased risk of tire damage, and more often more expensive tires)... 

If you are considering a Volkswagen auto group car with a DSG gearbox, you should have no reliability concerns regarding the hybrids, the DSG gearbox alone is a bigger reliability concern than the hybrid battery. I think it is worth more too... (avoid "Dry Clutch" type DSG, the "Wet Clutch" type is not quite as bad...)


822 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1703895 16-Jan-2017 07:50
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Scott3:

 

The basic equation for fuel cost + road tax is

Petrol: [L/100km]*[Cost of Petrol (say $1.85/L)]

 

Diesel [L/100km]*[Cost of Diesel (say $1.20/L)] + [Value RUC's (currently $6.20/100km)].

 

 

 

The fixed per km cost of the RUC's kills the economic feasibility of any diesels at the efficient end of the scale, while adding incentive for diesel engines for inefficient vehicles (cargo vans, massive SUV's etc).

For example a if a prius (rated 3.4L/100km petrol for the new one) running cost is roughly $6.29/100km (can it run 91 octane?), this is roughly the same as RUC's before you add any fuel use.

 

Fuel cost example comparison:

 

  • New Passat sedan TSI (132kW, 0-100:7.9s) @ 5.8L/100km petrol = $10.72/100km
  • New Passat sedan TDI (140kW, 0-100:7.7s) @ 4.6L/100km diesel = $11.72/100km
  • Current Camry hybrid (151kW, 0-100:8.1s) @ 5.2L/100km petrol = $9.62/100km i.e. Link
  • Last gen prius (slow) @ 3.8L/100km = $7.03/100km

 

 

In non fuel cost, rego for petrol cars is cheaper than diesel, and regular servicing is often cheaper & less frequent too.

Note the following

 

  • Fuel consumption of petrol cars goes up a lot more than that of diesel's if working hard (i.e. towing)
  • The comments that you hear about the reliability/durability of diesel engines compared to petrol engines don't apply any more. Things like turbos, Common rail fuel injection & exhaust gas treatment have made modern diesel complex and fragile compared to the diesels of old. High pressure fuel pumps cost thousands of dollars if they fail.
  • If you buy a diesel with a particulate filter, it needs to do a burn off cycle. Avoid if don't drive on the open road (or light traffic motorway) at least once a week (car needs about 10mins to clean its filter)
  • Toyota hybrids have a great reputation for reliability (GEN 2 / GEN 3 prius battery rarely fail), it is not a coincidence the bulk of the taxis in NZ are now toyota hybrids.
  • Hybrids have low tow ratings (prius = zero, camry hybrid = 300kg)

 

 

What is OP's use pattern? are those 1000's of km's per week a regular long commute, or intercity trips?

If the pattern is regular (and you can charge at work), there are some potential savings to be had from electric or plug in hybrid vehicles... (Nissan Leaf / BMW i3 / Holden Volt etc). If you could describe a typical week of driving that would help.

 

 

I think these are good points, I find the Camry tends to be better for busier motorway commutes than open, free flowing, roads. I also find, that when I want it to, it can be thirsty.




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Master Geek
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  # 1703950 16-Jan-2017 09:54
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Nah - i dont fancy living nearer work, i live near a beach....sadly my work is about as far away from a beach as you can get!

 

So my trip is some fast winding roads, a climb over a pretty substantial mountain range long straight sections and some express way usage.  

 

For other trips and weekends, i tend to jump into the wife's people mover to haul the three kids around, I'm currently seriously considering bringing in an S-Max from the UK but thats a different topic!

 

Thanks for clarifying the EECA labels INCLUDE RUC, appreciate the confirmation.

 

I am starting to work from home more and this is sometimes a couple of times a week, so this definitely could be something more common.  

 

I will have a look at the Camry - but one of the things that puts me off (i know it may seem trivial) is the lack of xenon's.  In the winter i drive for over an hour either way in the dark, and i currently have bi-xenon's and really need them for those dark and often foggy trips.  I have had vehicles with the traditional halogen bulbs and find they just don't cut through the darkness as effectively as xenon's...perhaps thats just perception.  But euro's do seem to have more of these type of "goodies" as standard....





I don't want no sugar in it - thank you very much

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  # 1704765 17-Jan-2017 16:13
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I've just gone through all this but I only do 500kms a week ;)

 

I created my own spreadsheet and at no stage could I find a diesel would be cheaper than a petrol. I've even plugged in my figures into the one linked above and petrol still wins.

 

95% of my driving is open road cruising and a manual 2.0l Focus beats all the diesels I considered whether I used 10k kms or 50k kms.

 

As someone has already said, diesel cant compete against smaller petrol cars. It's only worth considering if you drive something big or need the towing advantages.


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Ultimate Geek
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  # 1704901 17-Jan-2017 20:49
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DickDastardly:

 

Nah - i dont fancy living nearer work, i live near a beach....sadly my work is about as far away from a beach as you can get!

 

So my trip is some fast winding roads, a climb over a pretty substantial mountain range long straight sections and some express way usage.  

 

For other trips and weekends, i tend to jump into the wife's people mover to haul the three kids around, I'm currently seriously considering bringing in an S-Max from the UK but thats a different topic!

 

Thanks for clarifying the EECA labels INCLUDE RUC, appreciate the confirmation.

 

I am starting to work from home more and this is sometimes a couple of times a week, so this definitely could be something more common.  

 

I will have a look at the Camry - but one of the things that puts me off (i know it may seem trivial) is the lack of xenon's.  In the winter i drive for over an hour either way in the dark, and i currently have bi-xenon's and really need them for those dark and often foggy trips.  I have had vehicles with the traditional halogen bulbs and find they just don't cut through the darkness as effectively as xenon's...perhaps that's just perception.  But euro's do seem to have more of these type of "goodies" as standard....

 



 

Your use case could be perfect use case for an electric vehicle (if you can charge at work). Because of your high mileage you stand to save around $4800 per year in fuel and RUC compared to your current car. Thats pretty massive in my book. Having another car that you prefer for holidays etc means no loss of capability in that regard. A single direction trip is comftabley within the range of a 30 kWh leaf

 

If you haven't driven an electric vehicle before, take something like a leaf or i3 for a spin. They have a single speed gearbox, which means you are always in the right gear, no shift shock, instant power, and of course no engine noise.

Other advantages with an electric car are that you can skip your (weekly?) petrol stop, and much lower maintenance requirements (no engine related stuff, just tires, brakes (which last longer anyway due to regenerative braking), cabin air filter etc.


 

Regarding headlights, HID's (Xenon's) seem to becoming less common, but it is a surprise that Toyota don't offer a higher spec headlight than halogen on the high spec levels of the Camry hybrid although it does have the "Projector" or eyeball style headlights (have never driven one, so can't comment on their effectiveness). This is strange as toyota do offer LED headlights on high spec variants of other models such as the Prius and even the Corolla.

I found the headlights on the 2011 Leaf I drove on Waiheke to be way better than the ones on my 2006 corolla. (I'm not sure the style, but it wasn't LED). The higher spec modern leafs have LED low beams.

Most BMW i3's has halogens (With LED trim) which is a bit disappointing, but higher spec models have adaptive LED headlights. Mine does have auto dimming mirrors (all three) which is pretty sweet. In both the leaf & i3 you sit on top of the battery packs, so are a bit higher up than is typical in a car, meaning you get slightly less of other peoples headlights in your eyes.




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Master Geek
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  # 1705521 18-Jan-2017 22:40
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Cheers Scott,

 

I saw a Prius today....it had xenon's...Interesting...?!?!

 

So in terms of the Leaf and other plug in electric cars, you obviously save money on fuel and any RUC, but how much does this offset with additional electricity bills for your house?  

 

Id have to plug this bad boy in every night i suspect, so how much is this going to hit me in the pocket for increased domestic electricity costs?

 

 





I don't want no sugar in it - thank you very much

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  # 1705545 18-Jan-2017 23:35
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DickDastardly:

 

Cheers Scott,

 

I saw a Prius today....it had xenon's...Interesting...?!?!

 

So in terms of the Leaf and other plug in electric cars, you obviously save money on fuel and any RUC, but how much does this offset with additional electricity bills for your house?  

 

Id have to plug this bad boy in every night i suspect, so how much is this going to hit me in the pocket for increased domestic electricity costs?

 

 

 

 

 

 

The cost for charging is equivalent to ~2.5l/100km (petrol equivalent) - this is what has been quoted.

 

I have been to Toyota dealer and Leaf importer this past week. I don't know how annoying it is going to be knowing that I need to plug in the car every night. The hassle will be offset by almost zero ongoing maintenance (except for brake and tyres) with electric car.






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  # 1705567 19-Jan-2017 05:33
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"A Nissan Leaf charged on a domestic power point for 8 hours will cost between $4 and $7"


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