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400 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1779017 10-May-2017 11:35
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The car arguably, is going through it's biggest change since it's in invention.

 

EV's are here, and they're not going to go away. Autonomous tech is coming as well. All (including the ICE) have there own problems.

 

EV's are, at the moment, largely constrained by range. You need to go\drive where charging stations\points are, not necessarily where you want to go. To be fair, as others have said, more and more charging points are coming, but the recharge time is still a factor. Also, mentioned above was charge loss. Honestly, how bad is this? Hypothetically, if I drove an EV to say the airport, parked up for a week while on holiday, not plugged in, how much charge would be lost?

 

Autonomous cars, although the tech exists, as far as I know its the legal\morale side that is yet to be answered, e.g. if\should any autonomous car crash, who is at fault? The owner, dealer\salesperson, manufacturer? Also, don't autonomous cars also rely, to a degree, on the road marking? In NZ at least, how would an autonomous car drive a country road, which doesn't have the centre marking?

 

The ICE. It's only in the last few years that the ICE has been made more efficient with turbo charging and 9 speed gearboxes helping with fuel economy, range, and performance. If Christian Von Koenigsegg is to be believed, the current traditional gearbox results in a lot of lost energy. His company has tested and developed an ICE powered vehicle without a traditional gearbox, so why isn't this tech being championed more? Mainly, because the manufacturers seemed to be locked in a power war, and are obsessed with 'ring lap times.

 

Then you have the fuel cell vehicles. Elon Musk says they are dangerous, but of course he would, as he's built himself a little empire off electric battery powered vehicles. But if the same levels of R&D went into this medium as has been done with Hybrids, PHEV and EV's then maybe this would be, and maybe will be, who knows, another viable alternative.

 

 




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1779071 10-May-2017 13:29
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

The car arguably, is going through it's biggest change since it's in invention.

 

EV's are here, and they're not going to go away. Autonomous tech is coming as well. All (including the ICE) have there own problems.

 

EV's are, at the moment, largely constrained by range. You need to go\drive where charging stations\points are, not necessarily where you want to go. To be fair, as others have said, more and more charging points are coming, but the recharge time is still a factor. Also, mentioned above was charge loss. Honestly, how bad is this? Hypothetically, if I drove an EV to say the airport, parked up for a week while on holiday, not plugged in, how much charge would be lost?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was talking recently to a car sales person who said that electric vehicle batteries need to be used and recharged often to maintain peak performance. He said that if, for example, an EV owner goes overseas for 6 months and leaves his EV locked up in the garage at home, the battery can suffer irreversible damage and can even be a write-off. Now, I don't know how true this is, but perhaps it could be added to the long list of why some people are hesitating to invest in EVs.

 

I agree with your statement that EV's, at the moment, are largely constrained by range. Buying a pure EV with a range of less than, say, 250km would mean (for me at least) that owning a second ICE vehicle for longer trips is essential. Or perhaps just buy a plug-in hybrid if you only want to own one vehicle that has some EV range.

 

The other main constraint is the relatively high price of new EVs with the result that many people are forced into the second-hand market to try and mitigate this to some extent.

 

 


 
 
 
 


gzt

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  Reply # 1779088 10-May-2017 14:24
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Manufacturers are/have developed maintenance charge modes for that issue. Once a month driving is probably enough.

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  Reply # 1779102 10-May-2017 15:16
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My electric car came from UK by sea and battery still good enough when arrived to get to charging station.... So pretty sure leaving it an electric car at the airport for fortnight won't be an issue. For longer holidays I'd be leaving the car at home otherwise I would have to sell a kidney to pay for the parking charge...

My petrol car had a flat battery when it arrived but that's manageable too. Fresh petrol was put in asap too.

EV currently have strengths and weaknesses.

But some people seem to get very hot and bothered about why EV are bad (not here though) . ?guilty conscience

Don't hear as much anger directed at people who drive expensive European sports cars.

Some of the anger reminds me of my mother arguing why she didn't need a mobile phone about 6 years ago. More expensive, battery life, don't look nice.

If an ev doesn't work for you, fine.


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  Reply # 1779161 10-May-2017 16:47
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frednz:

 

an EV owner goes overseas for 6 months and leaves his EV locked up in the garage at home, the battery can suffer irreversible damage and can even be a write-off. Now, I don't know how true this is, but perhaps it could be added to the long list of why some people are hesitating to invest in EVs.

 

 

If you were storing an EV you'd leave it plugged in and set it to maintain the batteries, and probably have someone drive it around the block once in a while to prevent everything seizing up.  Like any other car.




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1779448 11-May-2017 10:11
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gzt: Manufacturers are/have developed maintenance charge modes for that issue. Once a month driving is probably enough.

 

So, can you leave your pure EV plugged in to the power and set it to a "maintain charge" mode for several weeks when the car is not in use? Is this a feature that is available for all EVs? It sounds like an important thing for potential buyers to know.

 

 




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1779461 11-May-2017 10:33
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

The car arguably, is going through it's biggest change since it's in invention.

 

EV's are here, and they're not going to go away. Autonomous tech is coming as well. All (including the ICE) have there own problems.

 

EV's are, at the moment, largely constrained by range. You need to go\drive where charging stations\points are, not necessarily where you want to go.  

 

 

Just a further word about the claimed range of pure EVs. I found this interesting YouTube review of the 2017 Renault Zoe 41 kWh pure electric vehicle. The reviewers, James and Kate, discussed in some detail the actual range they achieved with this vehicle.

 

They were disappointed to find that in real world driving conditions they could only get about 141 miles (227 km) from the car when they were expecting much more. When the car was pushed at a higher speed, the range diminished to about 107 miles (173 km).

 

I would have expected a 41kWh EV to achieve about 300km in range when driven around town as suggested here.

 

This page says that: "The new Renault ZOE is a game changer for the EV world offering a realistic real world driving range of 300kms!"

 

However, the YouTube review by James and Kate suggests that about 227 km is all you can expect. So perhaps we need a 60 kWh EV if we want a range of 300 km?

 

I have found the YouTube car reviews to be very helpful, but it pays to read several reviews about each vehicle as the conclusions from the different reviewers can vary quite a lot!

 

 


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  Reply # 1779506 11-May-2017 11:20
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frednz:

 

 

 

I was talking recently to a car sales person who said that electric vehicle batteries need to be used and recharged often to maintain peak performance. He said that if, for example, an EV owner goes overseas for 6 months and leaves his EV locked up in the garage at home, the battery can suffer irreversible damage and can even be a write-off. Now, I don't know how true this is, but perhaps it could be added to the long list of why some people are hesitating to invest in EVs.

 

.....

 

 

12V battery could go flat in that scenario. Traction battery is disconnected from the car by two main relays and the only current drawn is by the battery management computer (aka BMS or in Leaf it is called LBC - Lithium Battery Controller).

 

LBC draws very negligible current in that scenario. It's behavior very much similar to laptop battery being left for 6 months OUT of laptop (although schematics is different and laptop batteries do not use opto-couplers but traction batteries do).

 

Li cells can be restored even if they dropped to almost zero voltage. Done it myself many times. Most recently with "dead" Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

 

BMS or LBC are usually designed to prevent (cut off) external circuitry to be connected to the battery if Li cell voltage drops below, say 3 - 3.1V. Does not mean that "irreversible damage is done".

 

For consumer of course - that would be "mission impossible" to revive Li battery if it dropped that much.

 

My stats for the Li batteries being stored for 2 years - self discharge is very little. But those were NOT connected to LBC / BMS.

 

My and my business partner's stats on NIMH traction batteries from Prius and Lexus being stored for 1 year - voltages did not dropped below 7.2-7.4 v - but those were NOT connected to BMS during that storage.

 

I have not collected stats for batteries stored with BMS /LBC connected as it has no practical use for me.

 

 


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Wannabe Geek
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  Reply # 1782383 15-May-2017 11:00
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frednz:

 

gzt: Manufacturers are/have developed maintenance charge modes for that issue. Once a month driving is probably enough.

 

So, can you leave your pure EV plugged in to the power and set it to a "maintain charge" mode for several weeks when the car is not in use? Is this a feature that is available for all EVs? It sounds like an important thing for potential buyers to know.

 

 

I have my Tesla set to charge to 90% every evening at midnight, when the rates are lowest. When going on a trip, the car will lose some charge over time ("phantom drain"), in my case a few kms an evening, but this will be topped up automatically every evening. Tesla's advice at least is to leave your vehicle plugged in when not in use, and every EV owners should have a home charger of some sort so this should be a non issue.




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1782562 15-May-2017 14:06
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keithpatton:

 

frednz:

 

gzt: Manufacturers are/have developed maintenance charge modes for that issue. Once a month driving is probably enough.

 

So, can you leave your pure EV plugged in to the power and set it to a "maintain charge" mode for several weeks when the car is not in use? Is this a feature that is available for all EVs? It sounds like an important thing for potential buyers to know.

 

 

I have my Tesla set to charge to 90% every evening at midnight, when the rates are lowest. When going on a trip, the car will lose some charge over time ("phantom drain"), in my case a few kms an evening, but this will be topped up automatically every evening. Tesla's advice at least is to leave your vehicle plugged in when not in use, and every EV owners should have a home charger of some sort so this should be a non issue.

 

 

Thanks Ruki and Keith for your replies. I have also found this page on internet which concludes that:

 

"Assuming that your car is designed to be plugged in while you’re away, the cost will likely be miniscule. Once the battery is full or charges to the preset level, the car will only draw more power if needed; it won’t be continuously charging the car for weeks on end."

 

The above article suggests that vehicles such as Tesla and the BMW i3 may be left plugged in while you are away, but this is not recommended for the Nissan Leaf.

 

Further advice about the Nissan Leaf in particular can be seen in this article  which also says that:

 

Electric cars, just like every other device or machine that relies on rechargeable batteries, slowly discharge over time. Leave them in low state of charge for too long, and their traction battery packs are destroyed. (ouch!!!)

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 1782628 15-May-2017 15:35
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Thanks to FredNZ and Keith, both your answers address my hypothetical question:

 

Hypothetically, if I drove an EV to say the airport, parked up for a week while on holiday, not plugged in, how much charge would be lost?

 

This thread has highlighted and pointed out the benefits of the EV, but there are the downsides, such as the phantom drain and energy loss\discharge of a EV if left too long.

 

Hypothetically, driving a fully charged Tesla from say Waikanae to Wellington Airport and leaving it for 2 weeks unplugged, you'd be able to happily drive yourself home again. A Nissan Leaf on the other hand, may need to be topped up somewhere to allow you to get home again.

 

I'm not knocking the EV, but as I said above, the benefits are well documented, but the downsides need to be acknowledged as well. Sure an ICE powered vehicle may loss some range through evaporation, but this loss is a bit quicker to replace.


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  Reply # 1782680 15-May-2017 16:30
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Doing today refresh of my stock of Li modules. As expected self-discharge of those being stored for 1 or 2 years without BMS connected is hardly noticeable. Those connected to BMS are slightly discharged but no drama (e.g. instead of showing 4.1 - it is 3.9V). Those are 18650 and some flat Li modules. Point is: self -discharge in EV is exaggerated.


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  Reply # 1803723 19-Jun-2017 23:38
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  Reply # 1803726 20-Jun-2017 00:00
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PhantomNVD: Now here is an "EV" I'd REALLY love to own 😋

http://www.driven.co.nz/reviews/reviews/audi-q7-e-tron-future-first-with-torque-on-tap/

 

perfect - drive 56ks away from home then start to poison everyone


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Wannabe Geek
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  Reply # 1803768 20-Jun-2017 08:44
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PhantomNVD: Now here is an "EV" I'd REALLY love to own 😋

http://www.driven.co.nz/reviews/reviews/audi-q7-e-tron-future-first-with-torque-on-tap/

 

 

 

Or you could buy a Tesla Model X 100D for similar price and have fancy doors with no poisoning!


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