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774 posts

Ultimate Geek
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  # 1804671 21-Jun-2017 14:54
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frednz:

 

 

 

If you're worried about being poisoned by emissions, you will never fly or go on a cruise or do just about anything else! By the time the world is "all-electric" it will be far too late to "save the planet"!

 

 

 

 

Personally, I believe that anyone purchasing an electric vehicle for "Environmental Reasons" is misguided.  There are a number of reasons for this - some less relevant in NZ, but still significant globally.

 

1) Generation of electricity is the leading source of CO2 emissions in the USA.  (source)  This is not only true of the US...

 

2) CO2 emissions to produce an EV battery are extremely high.  (equivalent to running a typical petrol/diesel car for over 8yrs in the case of a Tesla Model S)  (source)  Consider that the usable lifespan of such a battery may only be 5-10yrs.

 

3) Environmental impact of disposing of EV batteries are largely unknown.  (Though more likely to be directly effecting humans through exposure to toxins etc. than effecting climate through emissions.)

 

4) Hybrids are only effective at reducing emissions if driven "appropriately".  (At the risk of discrediting esteemed sources above by citing Jeremy Clarkson in this one - there was an episode of Top Gear where a Hybrid Vehicle was tested on track, lapping as quickly as it could.  A diesel BMW matching its pace produced fewer emissions that the hybrid did.)

 

 

 

That said, I do believe that EV's will be a big part of the future of transportation.  I just don't believe that the environmental argument stacks up.


Fat bottom Trump
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  # 1804686 21-Jun-2017 15:17
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The problem with these kinds of discussions is that technology doesn't stand still and you can never know what the future will bring. I expect better batteries will reduce the impact of those on the environment, both production and disposal, and better methods of electricity generation will help with the rest. What about fuel cell technology? If the environmental argument doesn't stack up today, that says nothing about tomorrow. In any case, even just displacing air pollution from cities to wherever power is generated can be a win. 

 

 





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


 
 
 
 


753 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1804697 21-Jun-2017 15:29
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DarthKermit:

 

Sorry if this has already been brought up, but what does the government plan to do about the large drop in fuel taxes that they currently collect and use for road building and maintenance? The only alternative that I can see is for user charges like diesel vehicles have.

 

 

@DarthKermit  - you are correct: currently EV are currently exempt road users charges (RUC) until 2020 (that date is from memory so subject is approximate only). At some point the government by extend or remove the RUC exemption


662 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1804700 21-Jun-2017 15:45
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KrazyKid:

 

DarthKermit:

 

Sorry if this has already been brought up, but what does the government plan to do about the large drop in fuel taxes that they currently collect and use for road building and maintenance? The only alternative that I can see is for user charges like diesel vehicles have.

 

 

@DarthKermit  - you are correct: currently EV are currently exempt road users charges (RUC) until 2020 (that date is from memory so subject is approximate only). At some point the government by extend or remove the RUC exemption

 

 

My understanding is that the exemption is currently a carrot to try and get people into EV's. But yes, they need to pay there way in the future, no doubt.


662 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 1804706 21-Jun-2017 15:51
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Interestingly, in the last month or so, the automotive\car news I've seen, there have been more stories concerning Fuel Cell vehicles than I've seen in the past.

 

Autocar magazine in the UK have a Toyota Miari on long term test for 6 months

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/toyota-mirai-long-term-test-review-first-report

 

And today, Wheels magazine out of Australia are reporting that scientists at UNSW have found a cheaper way to produce the Hydrogen.

 

https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/news/1706/oz-scientists-crack-the-code-for-cheap-hydrogen-fuel

 

EDIT:

 

Added news link from University.

 

http://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/new-ultrathin-material-splitting-water-could-make-hydrogen-production-cheaper


2913 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 1804727 21-Jun-2017 16:09
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Fundamentally, using electricity to crack water to make hydrogen to make electricity seems silly to me, unless hydrogen has some benefit over just using the electricity to charge the battery in the car. Apparently it is lighter than the equivalent battery, but there's lots of issues with refuelling with and storing highly compressed hydrogen.

 

With graphene-based supercapacitors on the horizon, to me hydrogen fuel cells look like they'll go the way of bubble memory and the Apple III.

 

 


236 posts

Master Geek


  # 1804729 21-Jun-2017 16:10
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The push towards renewable power generation is happenning in parallell with electric vehicles so the carbon footprint of producing an electric vehicle should reduce in turn.

An typical internal combustion powered vehicle has around 2000 moving parts. A Tesla only has 18. A statistic which surely points to EVs as the future of vehicular transport, once manufacturing is scaled up.





 
 
 
 


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  # 1804746 21-Jun-2017 16:39
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Rikkitic:

 

MikeAqua:

 

And I would like to explore a new world too.  Not some scabby old rock like Mars.  I'd like to see a new world with with evolved biota.  Large plants and mobile animals.

 

 

And all of them will want to eat you.

 

 

I assume if we can cross interstellar space, weaponry and body armour will be sufficient to deter any aggressive critters.

 

Besides ... 90% of animal are herbivores.  So only 10% will want to eat me.





Mike

Fat bottom Trump
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  # 1804750 21-Jun-2017 16:44
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MikeAqua:

 

Rikkitic:

 

MikeAqua:

 

And I would like to explore a new world too.  Not some scabby old rock like Mars.  I'd like to see a new world with with evolved biota.  Large plants and mobile animals.

 

 

And all of them will want to eat you.

 

 

I assume if we can cross interstellar space, weaponry and body armour will be sufficient to deter any aggressive critters.

 

Besides ... 90% of animal are herbivores.  So only 10% will want to eat me.

 

 

On a world with a different evolutionary history, you may be a vegetable!





I reject your reality and substitute my own. - Adam Savage
 


5385 posts

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  # 1804752 21-Jun-2017 16:50
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frankv:

 

Fundamentally, using electricity to crack water to make hydrogen to make electricity seems silly to me, unless hydrogen has some benefit over just using the electricity to charge the battery in the car. Apparently it is lighter than the equivalent battery, but there's lots of issues with refuelling with and storing highly compressed hydrogen.

 

 

 

 

The advantages of hydrogen are energy density (compared to batteries) and 're-charge' time, which severely limits daily range.

 

The disadvantages are cost of production, transport and storage.

 

CSIRO research which purportedly converts hydrogen into ammonia much more cheaply  than current methods offers a solution to the transport and storage aspects and conversion back to hydrogen at point of use.  The by-product being nitrogen gas - which is ~80% of the atmosphere.

 

Australia is looking at solar energy for hydrogen production because they have plenty of saline water in desert locations.  They see themselves as exporters.

 

 

 

 





Mike

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  # 1804754 21-Jun-2017 16:52
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It is a chicken & egg scenario. If everyone waits until EV's a perfect to buy one, the lack of demand will stall development - so go buy one, encourage development. The people who said in 1908 that there is no future in petrol cars because the Ford Model T was rubbish look pretty silly now. 

 

Point 1 - not true in NZ, Norway and a bunch of other countries. Highly relevant in the USA, Australia.

 

Point 2 - If true, means you need to keep an EV on the road for 9 years (in NZ) for it to be carbon neutral (not a tall order really) - how long does it take a petrol car to be carbon neutral? Never! Therefore EV is the best option presently available any country that has some renewable generation.

 

 Point 3 - Recycling! Lead is cheaper than lithium and we already recycle most of our lead batteries. The unknown environmental hazards are from the point of view of land filling - lead batteries are also extremely bad in a land fill, but pose little practical threat because most are recycled so never reach a land fill. Oil from your gas car is a diabolical polluter, so we recycle it instead of chucking it into the environment.

 

Point 4  - hybrid is a feel-good cross over technology. It is using EV technology to improve petrol efficiency, and to progressively ease people from petrol to petrol-electric to petrol-plugin-electric to pure plugin electric in a sublet and comfortable way. Besides, you have to drive a hybrid pretty badly to ruin it's fuel economy - I think you'll find Mr Clarkson claimed his diesel had better fuel economy, not fewer emissions. This is a no brainer because litre for litre, diesel has almost double the calorific value of petrol. Diesel is going the way of 2 Strokes - it is proving too hard to get the emissions down (hence diesel-gate & cooking the figures), so their days in cities are very numbered (numerous cities have deadlines after which they will be banned).


5385 posts

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  # 1804765 21-Jun-2017 17:15
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Rikkitic:

 

On a world with a different evolutionary history, you may be a vegetable!

 

 

 

 

An ecosystem needs some sort of life-form that turns non-biological energy into biological energy.  You are right that could be a large mobile organism akin to an animal on earth.  Like tree that can move.  That would be cool. 

 

But I'd be packing serious heat and wearing body armour or a mech suit, so anything wants to eat me would end up stunned or eating lead (or plasma or whatever).

 

 





Mike

5385 posts

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  # 1804766 21-Jun-2017 17:21
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tripper1000:

 

If everyone waits until EV's a perfect to buy one, the lack of demand will stall development - so go buy one, encourage development.

 

 

 

 

This I have an issue with.  I'm not paying more $ for car that is less capable and has a spartan fit out. 

 

I buy stuff that meets my expectations.  I don't buy stuff that doesn't.

 

Note I am not saying EVs are not viable and will not replace ICEVs.  They will displace most ICEVs, eventually. But at the moment they are niche.

 

Fortunately there are early adopters who love the idea of owning an EV enough to live with the many compromises required.

 

I'll swoop in later when EVs are cheaper than and just as good or better than ICEVs.





Mike



1195 posts

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  # 1804870 21-Jun-2017 21:01
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

Interestingly, in the last month or so, the automotive\car news I've seen, there have been more stories concerning Fuel Cell vehicles than I've seen in the past.

 

Autocar magazine in the UK have a Toyota Miari on long term test for 6 months

 

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/toyota-mirai-long-term-test-review-first-report

 

And today, Wheels magazine out of Australia are reporting that scientists at UNSW have found a cheaper way to produce the Hydrogen.

 

https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/news/1706/oz-scientists-crack-the-code-for-cheap-hydrogen-fuel

 

EDIT:

 

Added news link from University.

 

http://newsroom.unsw.edu.au/news/science-tech/new-ultrathin-material-splitting-water-could-make-hydrogen-production-cheaper

 

 

Thanks for these interesting links. I have also come across this article titled:

 

"Instantly rechargeable battery could change the future of electric and hybrid vehicles."

 

The above article is about "flow batteries". It says in the article that:

 

"Other flow batteries exist, but we are the first to remove membranes which reduces costs and extends battery life."

 

Here is a further extract from the article about this promising technology:

 

"Instead of refining petroleum, the refiners would reprocess spent electrolytes and instead of dispensing gas, the fueling stations would dispense a water and ethanol or methanol solution as fluid electrolytes to power vehicles,” Cushman said. “Users would be able to drop off the spent electrolytes at gas stations, which would then be sent in bulk to solar farms, wind turbine installations or hydroelectric plants for reconstitution or re-charging into the viable electrolyte and reused many times. It is believed that our technology could be nearly ‘drop-in’ ready for most of the underground piping system, rail and truck delivery system, gas stations and refineries.”Mike Mueterthies, Purdue doctoral teaching and research assistant in physics and the third co-founder of Ifbattery, said the flow battery system makes the Ifbattery system unique."


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  # 1804909 21-Jun-2017 21:58
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frankv:

 

Fundamentally, using electricity to crack water to make hydrogen to make electricity seems silly to me, unless hydrogen has some benefit over just using the electricity to charge the battery in the car. Apparently it is lighter than the equivalent battery, but there's lots of issues with refuelling with and storing highly compressed hydrogen.

 

With graphene-based supercapacitors on the horizon, to me hydrogen fuel cells look like they'll go the way of bubble memory and the Apple III.

 

 

 

 

I thought the problem with hydogen as a fuel source is that most of the hydrogen would come for the "oil sources" ie cracking poor quality fossil fuels.

 

 

 

A.

 

 


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