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  # 1808891 29-Jun-2017 12:55
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frankv:

 

 

 

Right... I commute about 80km/day in a second-hand Mondeo at a cost of about $6K/year for fuel and depreciation. Where can I get an EV (any size) for that price?

 

 

https://www.eecabusiness.govt.nz/tools/vehicle-total-cost-of-ownership-tool/ puts the yearly cost over 3 years for a leaf (at $35k! when you could get one for ~20k) at around 6k

 

I also doubt that on average 6k/year is enough long term to cover maintenance items on such a car. Maintenance on an EV is much less as there are fewer things to go wrong or that require servicing.


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  # 1808901 29-Jun-2017 13:21
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ubergeeknz:

 

 

 

https://www.eecabusiness.govt.nz/tools/vehicle-total-cost-of-ownership-tool/ puts the yearly cost over 3 years for a leaf (at $35k! when you could get one for ~20k) at around 6k

 

I also doubt that on average 6k/year is enough long term to cover maintenance items on such a car. Maintenance on an EV is much less as there are fewer things to go wrong or that require servicing.

 

 

But (yet) again ... the money you pay for a near new leaf, you can buy a new ICEV with free servicing and no WOF for three years.

 

A leaf will have fewer but still some servicing requirements tyres, bearings, brakes, ?diff?

 

And if battery replacement is required ...





Mike

 
 
 
 


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  # 1808904 29-Jun-2017 13:29
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MikeAqua:

 

ubergeeknz:

 

 

 

https://www.eecabusiness.govt.nz/tools/vehicle-total-cost-of-ownership-tool/ puts the yearly cost over 3 years for a leaf (at $35k! when you could get one for ~20k) at around 6k

 

I also doubt that on average 6k/year is enough long term to cover maintenance items on such a car. Maintenance on an EV is much less as there are fewer things to go wrong or that require servicing.

 

 

But (yet) again ... the money you pay for a near new leaf, you can buy a new ICEV with free servicing and no WOF for three years.

 

A leaf will have fewer but still some servicing requirements tyres, bearings, brakes, ?diff?

 

And if battery replacement is required ...

 

 

 

 

Add in your fuel costs... and chance of a battery failure is practically nil

 

edit: also consider that "free servicing" will not include tires or consumables


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  # 1809241 29-Jun-2017 21:54
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ubergeeknz:

 

frankv:

 

 

 

Right... I commute about 80km/day in a second-hand Mondeo at a cost of about $6K/year for fuel and depreciation. Where can I get an EV (any size) for that price?

 

 

https://www.eecabusiness.govt.nz/tools/vehicle-total-cost-of-ownership-tool/ puts the yearly cost over 3 years for a leaf (at $35k! when you could get one for ~20k) at around 6k

 

I also doubt that on average 6k/year is enough long term to cover maintenance items on such a car. Maintenance on an EV is much less as there are fewer things to go wrong or that require servicing.

 

 

Yeah, my $6K/yr is a rough estimate, and it's not toal cost of ownership. Add in $1K/year in repairs & maintenance on top of that.

 

I expect that maintenance on an EV will be cheaper, but it won't be zero. Whilst you won't have an engine to tune and plugs and oil to change and a cooling system to spring leaks, you will still have windscreen wipers and wheel bearings and tyres and suspension and so on. I guess with regenerative braking you would probably save on brake pads & rotors though.

 

Nowadays an engine and gearbox will work for 200,000km and probably 300,000, so 10 years' life is a reasonably safe bet. So, for simplicity, I ignored any major repairs and instead I'm completely writing off my entire $5K purchase price over 5 years. If your new EV costs $35K, depreciation alone is likely to be $6K in the first year. Let alone the cost of borrowing the extra $30K ($1500/yr if you can borrow at 5%).  And my understanding is that batteries last about 10 years, and cost about $10K... i.e. about $1K/year.

 

Whilst I guess it's unfair to compare cost of ownership of a $35K new vehicle against a $5k second-hand one, ATM I can't buy a $5k second-hand EV... so my real-world choice *is* between a $5k ICEV and a $20K or so EV. I can think of lots better things to spend the extra $15K on.

 

Incidentally, do EVs have heaters? It's just occurred to me that my car heater uses "free" waste heat from the engine. I guess an EV would have an electric heater? Which would bite into your range if you used it too much?

 

 


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  # 1809279 29-Jun-2017 23:07
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frankv:

 

 

 

Incidentally, do EVs have heaters? It's just occurred to me that my car heater uses "free" waste heat from the engine. I guess an EV would have an electric heater? Which would bite into your range if you used it too much?

 

 

The Gen 1 leaf had a resistive heater, which was quite a battery drain. However the Gen 2 (that's late 2012+) have a heat pump and I have found it makes hardly any difference to range.  They also have heated seats and heated steering wheel, which are nice on chilly mornings.  I imagine other EVs are the same.  Could not really imagine a car in this decade without heating!


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  # 1809288 30-Jun-2017 00:12
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This is a level headed discussion on EVs which I haven't seen linked to here yet:

https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@boardroom/2017/06/26/36098/time-to-get-on-board-with-electric-vehicles-mercury-ceo

Listen to the interview.

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  # 1809299 30-Jun-2017 02:51
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frankv:

 

Whilst I guess it's unfair to compare cost of ownership of a $35K new vehicle against a $5k second-hand one, ATM I can't buy a $5k second-hand EV... so my real-world choice *is* between a $5k ICEV and a $20K or so EV. I can think of lots better things to spend the extra $15K on. 

 

 

If you are looking at a $5K ICEV, then its not fair to compare that to a $20K EV. You should be looking at the around $10K Leafs.

 

Still a bit of a difference, but you need to look at running costs like fuel as well. The EV won´t be using a lot of electricity and have a low per km cost, while the ICEV is going to cost you quite a bit.

 

Doesn't help if the range of the EV doesn't cover you day to day usage. I know an EV would cover my usual use of a car. But I have a fairly new ICEV. If I was looking for cars today I would be seriously considering an EV.





 
 
 
 




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  # 1809402 30-Jun-2017 09:46
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jarledb:

 

frankv:

 

Whilst I guess it's unfair to compare cost of ownership of a $35K new vehicle against a $5k second-hand one, ATM I can't buy a $5k second-hand EV... so my real-world choice *is* between a $5k ICEV and a $20K or so EV. I can think of lots better things to spend the extra $15K on. 

 

 

If you are looking at a $5K ICEV, then its not fair to compare that to a $20K EV. You should be looking at the around $10K Leafs.

 

Still a bit of a difference, but you need to look at running costs like fuel as well. The EV won´t be using a lot of electricity and have a low per km cost, while the ICEV is going to cost you quite a bit.

 

Doesn't help if the range of the EV doesn't cover you day to day usage. I know an EV would cover my usual use of a car. But I have a fairly new ICEV. If I was looking for cars today I would be seriously considering an EV.

 

 

I'm also seriously considering an EV, but when using the term "EV" I think you need to say whether you are talking about a hybrid plug-in EV that has an electric range of about 30K, or a pure electric EV which has no petrol back-up at all.

 

I'm leaning towards a plug-in hybrid EV because the range of affordable pure electric EVs is not enough when you are reliant on charging stations away from home base. So, if I were to buy a pure EV, then I would definitely use it only around town as a second car. I'd hate to have a pure EV and then find it can't even make it from Napier to Taupo without causing considerable range anxiety! Could a $10K Leaf make it from Napier to Taupo without causing considerable range anxiety? Or even the latest Leaf?

 

And the pure electric old model BMWi3 that is selling second-hand for around $45,000 would probably also struggle to make it from Napier to Taupo when it has a maximum range (when new) of only about 130km. Who would want to pay $45,000 for an EV that has a range of only 120-130km?

 

I think that, if you only want to own one car, then most pure electric EVs are still mainly for enthusiasts who love working out in advance just where they will need to stop and charge the battery. Sure, you can buy long-range Teslas if you have just won Lotto, but for most people they are still way too expensive!


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  # 1809609 30-Jun-2017 13:53
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frednz:

 

 

 

I think that, if you only want to own one car, then most pure electric EVs are still mainly for enthusiasts who love working out in advance just where they will need to stop and charge the battery. Sure, you can buy long-range Teslas if you have just won Lotto, but for most people they are still way too expensive!

 

 

Not everyone makes a lot of long trips.  If you do 1-2 times a year, you could just hire a car for that.  I mean you're right, the current offerings are not for everyone.  But the limitations are not as severe in practice as a lot of people seem to think.


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  # 1809617 30-Jun-2017 14:11
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According to NZ Statistics - the personal car park (business  aside) in New Zealand is quite old - with 15 year old (and older) cars in use.

 

That is mainly because of second-hand JDM imports which are coming here 5-7 year old compact sedan / hatchbacks and 9 year old bigger cars. And then they are spending another 10 years easily in here. Hybrids made in 1997-1999 are still on the roads.

 

The latest stats for EV uptake in New Zealand shows about 1500 private second hand EVs registered.

 

Currently as I got confirmation from reliable source yesterday - there were 2 failed battery packs in Leaf up to date. And I am aware of couple in use with degraded batteries. But that is from 1500 already sold in NZ.

 

Right now when the pack fails - you would need to leave your EV for a couple of days for the pack to be fixed.

 

I am working on the process/procedure where battery swap in Leaf to another good one should take just few minutes.





Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair 

 

 


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  # 1809633 30-Jun-2017 14:35
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Here's some analysis an accountant made, comparing the TCO of a 10k 2nd hand ICE to a 25k 2nd hand Nissan Leaf.  2 year actuals used for the ICE.

 

It shows an average $500 / year saving over 5 years.  Edit: this is based on 13kkm/year so fuel savings increase with more mileage

 

Analysis of cost - 10k ICE to 25k Leaf over 5 years

 

source:

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155251436196655&set=gm.1877442089189763

 

 

 

 


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  # 1810515 2-Jul-2017 17:21
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What came by surprise just yesterday from my source overseas is this:

 

"If any airbag in Tesla is deployed, then it is withdrawn from service support internationally" (according to person who is dealing with luxury cars overseas).

 

Meaning that if you are planning to buy second-hand one - make sure it is not salvaged car and seek official confirmation that it is supported.

 

Usually if airbag in, say Toyota is deployed - new SRS computer and airbag will be changed.

 

That discovery came because of 1 case in NZ where Tesla officials refused to service salvaged car imported as a wreck from Australia... :-(

 

 





Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair 

 

 


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  # 1810775 3-Jul-2017 11:05
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ubergeeknz: 

 

Add in your fuel costs... and chance of a battery failure is practically nil

 

edit: also consider that "free servicing" will not include tires or consumables

 

 

Fuel is the cheap part of owning a car.  About $60 per fortnight for our Mazda in a routine use scenario.  Equates to buying one coffee per day.

 

The killers are cost of money (finance or opportunity) and depreciation.

 

The 'free' servicing plan (actually pre-paid servicing) on our Mazda includes all consumables, except tyres.  EVs use tyres too.





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  # 1810812 3-Jul-2017 11:43
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MikeAqua:

 

 

 

Fuel is the cheap part of owning a car.  About $60 per fortnight for our Mazda in a routine use scenario. 

 

 

So you drive around 8000 KM a year, I am guessing? Thats fairly low. I think normal usage would be around 12,000 - 15,000 KM a year. In that case we are talking around $120 per fortnight and a fuel cost of about $3,000 per year.

 

I don't know about you, but to me thats a bit of money.. 





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  # 1810908 3-Jul-2017 13:58
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jarledb:

 

MikeAqua:

 

 Fuel is the cheap part of owning a car.  About $60 per fortnight for our Mazda in a routine use scenario. 

 

 

So you drive around 8000 KM a year, I am guessing? Thats fairly low. I think normal usage would be around 12,000 - 15,000 KM a year. In that case we are talking around $120 per fortnight and a fuel cost of about $3,000 per year.

 

I don't know about you, but to me that's a bit of money.

 

 

NZ average - 14,000km according to the AA and Rightcar.

 

Pretend my parter and I are average motorists doing 14,000 kms per year:- 

 

According to Rightcar 14,000 kms per year would use $1,610 of petrol in a Mazda 3 SP25 or $360 of electricity in a leaf.

 

So the Leaf costs $1,250 less for annual energy costs.  It's also $3 cheaper to register.

 

Where EVs look interesting to me is at the bottom end of the market.  There are a few around the $10k mark on TM. They tend to be 2010 or 2011 vehicles and comparably priced ICEV at about the same price are about the same age. 

 

As the EV fleet ages and if it remains reliable, then a cheap EV may be a better choice for a low income family (assumes access to suitable charging infrastructure at home) than a cheap ICEV.  The EV presumably carries a lower risk of a high cost repair bill.  But I don't know how long EVs will remain reliable.





Mike

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