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  # 1824322 18-Jul-2017 12:35
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Batman: Except that if you go on your annual journey, then so would 1 million others. Or 10 million if you are from a metropolis. The queue to charge would be ... Sorry beyond my math ability.

I'm sure they will come up with something ...

 

It will be a problem and already is in some places. EVs that charge slowly make it worse....especially PHEVs with small batteries that are slow AND can't go very far....but the owners are trying to drive them like EVs. In the UK, the Mitsi Outlander PHEV is hated by many other EV drivers for this reason. That's been somewhat resolved by most of the chargers no longer being free......and the PHEV drivers have stopped charging every 40km at £6 a pop. :-) 

But lets say in 5 years the average range of an EV is 400km. For all but the biggest trips people will charge at home or overnight in a motel or campground. Few people will drive that distance in large enough numbers on the same day so as to overwhelm the fast charging network of that time. 

The Tesla Supercharger model is a good one. 8-12 (or more) charging stalls, each capable of (today) 120kw charging......so even the biggest Tesla battery can get to 80% in barely more than a half hour. If there are more of them and they go to the planned 350kw charging....then they will be charging cars with 100kw batteries in less than 20 minutes. Still longer than with petrol.......but without the background burden of supporting ALL other vehicles. They need only support the vehicles on road trips from several hundred kms away.  

You just won't need as many of them. A tiny fraction.....and remember....an EV can charge up pretty much anywhere =>  homes, hotels, shopping malls, libraries....lamp posts (a new thing). 








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  # 1824324 18-Jul-2017 12:38
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MikeAqua:

 

Enthalpy density of batteries ... Every battery type has a maximum theoretical energy output per kg of reagents.  None of them are very encouraging in a mobile application.  We need better tech and/or to make the parts of the cars that aren't battery or motorcars much, much lighter.

 

 

That sounds a little defeatist - we already have an electric car with 580km range and there are new technologies being looked into that may offer improvements.

 

MikeAqua:

 

I don't drive 800km in day very often but when I want to, I want to.  I also want to do it in my own car.  600km towing in day would be a several times per year occurrence.

 

Our record is Nelson to Dome Valley (just N of Auckland) towing a caravan with a couple of kayaks on the roof-rack (more drag than K-road).   Filled up in Picton because the Ferry was running late so we had time.  Next stop was Tokoroa to top off the tank (1/4 left) and change drivers. 

 

Try that in an EV ...

 

 

Tesla are adding supercharger stations in the North Island, last I heard it was Sanson, Turangi, Hamilton and Auckland - sounds like plenty of places to top up a Tesla Model X towing a caravan.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1824335 18-Jul-2017 12:41
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Today I saw a BMW plugged in at the Cambridge charging point, the owner was taking a photo of his car being charged.  I did also see a Tesla model S the other week in Cambridge.  Slowly there are people moving to electric, the more that do it the better the support for electric cars.


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  # 1824343 18-Jul-2017 12:52
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Although I haven't heard the term used for awhile, Americans used to speak of 'instant gratification' as a symptom of the self-obsessed 'me' generation. The idea is that people want something and they want it now with no conditions or restrictions. I think of this when I imagine the ubiquitous young male hopping into his V8 and turning the key. The problem (if it is one) with electric vehicles is not limited range or slow charging. It is that this style of driving requires change on the part of the drivers. People need to think about things they didn't have to before, or think about them differently. For many that is too much ask. They want to just flip a switch and go, preferably with lots of smoke and noise. When people get used to a different way of doing things, a lot of the objections will disappear. 

 

 





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  # 1824356 18-Jul-2017 13:14
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Rikkitic:

 

Although I haven't heard the term used for awhile, Americans used to speak of 'instant gratification' as a symptom of the self-obsessed 'me' generation. The idea is that people want something and they want it now with no conditions or restrictions. I think of this when I imagine the ubiquitous young male hopping into his V8 and turning the key. The problem (if it is one) with electric vehicles is not limited range or slow charging. It is that this style of driving requires change on the part of the drivers. People need to think about things they didn't have to before, or think about them differently. For many that is too much ask. They want to just flip a switch and go, preferably with lots of smoke and noise. When people get used to a different way of doing things, a lot of the objections will disappear. 

 

True.....and a lot of objections disappear when they put their foot down on the accelerator and the EV takes off like a rocket....and no gear changes....all the way to the top. 

More objections disappear when they realise how inexpensive an EV is to run....and servicing costs are much lower (and less frequent) than a regular car....and they are also a lot cleaner at home. You don't tend to see oil spots on concrete under EVs.

It's just different.....and people who take the time to explore the difference tend to find they really like it.  

 

 





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  # 1824363 18-Jul-2017 13:27
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Rikkitic:

 

Although I haven't heard the term used for awhile, Americans used to speak of 'instant gratification' as a symptom of the self-obsessed 'me' generation. The idea is that people want something and they want it now with no conditions or restrictions. I think of this when I imagine the ubiquitous young male hopping into his V8 and turning the key. The problem (if it is one) with electric vehicles is not limited range or slow charging. It is that this style of driving requires change on the part of the drivers. People need to think about things they didn't have to before, or think about them differently. For many that is too much ask. They want to just flip a switch and go, preferably with lots of smoke and noise. When people get used to a different way of doing things, a lot of the objections will disappear. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, we have had a few people say they like the roar of the "ICE" engine when they put their foot to the floor! I wonder what happens when you do this with an EV, do you hear any noise at all when the engine is revved to its max?

 

Perhaps for the slightly more mature driver, the relatively high cost of a new EV in NZ and the quite limited range of a lot of "affordable" EVs on sale here, are the factors that make them hesitate to buy an EV!

 

 


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  # 1824386 18-Jul-2017 14:05
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For the EV to succeed, it's needs to be able to do 100% of the things a conventional ICE powered vehicle can do.

 

Can you have your Model X in the sea water to it's rear axle while launching\retrieving a boat at a boat ramp for example?

 

It's also going to require a massive, massive investment by every motor camp, motel, and hotel in the country to have EV charging per motel unit\room, and additional charging outlets at every powered campsite throughout the country so you can charge your EV while road tripping around the country.

 

And really, they all need to have there own independent power sources (you'd be a bit stuffed in the last 6 days trying to charge your EV in some points of the central plateau), and have charging points\stations on all highways, e.g. the forgotten highway.


 
 
 
 


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  # 1824406 18-Jul-2017 14:20
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The Perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

EV do not have to fulfil 100% of the wants and needs to be successful.  People still ride horses, and they still ride bicycles.  Does it mean the ICE car is a failure?


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  # 1824408 18-Jul-2017 14:21
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frednz:

 

 

 

Yes, we have had a few people say they like the roar of the "ICE" engine when they put their foot to the floor! I wonder what happens when you do this with an EV, do you hear any noise at all when the engine is revved to its max?

 

Perhaps for the slightly more mature driver, the relatively high cost of a new EV in NZ and the quite limited range of a lot of "affordable" EVs on sale here, are the factors that make them hesitate to buy an EV!

 

The main noise is wind and wheels......though the electric motor (at least in LEAF) does add what some people have described as a "futuristic" noise to the mix....others call it a somewhat high-pitched whine.....but it's not very loud even at the top end. The wind rushing by drowns it out.  

 

As for  the range, wouldn't the "slightly more mature" drivers fall foul of the bladder range test? ;-) 

 

 





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  # 1824422 18-Jul-2017 14:28
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

For the EV to succeed, it's needs to be able to do 100% of the things a conventional ICE powered vehicle can do.

 

Can you have your Model X in the sea water to it's rear axle while launching\retrieving a boat at a boat ramp for example?

 

It's also going to require a massive, massive investment by every motor camp, motel, and hotel in the country to have EV charging per motel unit\room, and additional charging outlets at every powered campsite throughout the country so you can charge your EV while road tripping around the country.

 

And really, they all need to have there own independent power sources (you'd be a bit stuffed in the last 6 days trying to charge your EV in some points of the central plateau), and have charging points\stations on all highways, e.g. the forgotten highway.

 

 

It will vary by car, but the EV tends to stand up to water better than many normal cars because it doesn't need air. But where inundation disables standard electrics I guess they would be the same.....assuming the normal accessory wiring. Check out YouTube. There are several videos of EVs plowing through door-high water. 

As for motels and motor camps, they already provide 10amp or 16amp charging. More than good enough for any overnight stay. I've done this all over NZ already. Mostly I just park in front of the unit and throw the wire out the window later in the evening and put the door mat over it. Walkways tend to be lit anyway.....so the hazard of tripping over boots left outside the door is problably worse than stubbing a toe on a wire 1cm in diameter. 

Power outages are a problem, yes. But a generator can charge a car as well as it can do any other thing......or drive a PHEV if the risk exists in a way that makes it a problem. 

The problems are getting smaller and fewer. EVs aren't for everyone....yet. Just more and more people every day. 

I don't want my EV to do everything an ICE car does anyway......or it would be dirtier and more costly to run. 

Kiwi love to save money and EVs already do that very well. That's why there were 1050 in January last year and just under 4000 as of June 30th. Prices are coming down, too. I looked at TradeMe a couple of days ago and there were several elderly LEAFs for just under $10K. That's several thousand less than 6 months ago. 

Word is getting out. 










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  # 1824430 18-Jul-2017 14:44
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ubergeeknz:

 

The Perfect is the enemy of the good.

 

EV do not have to fulfil 100% of the wants and needs to be successful.  People still ride horses, and they still ride bicycles.  Does it mean the ICE car is a failure?

 

 

Well, going by the response to one of my earlier posts, the ICE is one of the causes of climate change and global warming, and (as Jeremy Clarkson would say) giving Johnny polar beer a hard time.

 

So, if we look at it this way, then the EV does have to do 100% of the things a ICE can do. That way, the EV will reduce the impact of climate change, save the polar beer, all while reducing pollution and emissions.

 

 

 

 


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  # 1824431 18-Jul-2017 14:45
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MarkH67:

 

MikeAqua:

 

Enthalpy density of batteries ... Every battery type has a maximum theoretical energy output per kg of reagents.  None of them are very encouraging in a mobile application.  We need better tech and/or to make the parts of the cars that aren't battery or motorcars much, much lighter.

 

 

That sounds a little defeatist - we already have an electric car with 580km range and there are new technologies being looked into that may offer improvements.

 

 

 

 

It's not defeatest to say enthalpy can't be exceeded, its basic thermodynamics.

 

Enthalpy actually can't be attained by a battery let alone exceeded.

 

 





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  # 1824434 18-Jul-2017 14:53
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

Can you have your Model X in the sea water to it's rear axle while launching\retrieving a boat at a boat ramp for example?

 

 

I wouldn't do that with any car be it EV or ICE and I can't think of any boat ramp where I'd need to.

 

WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

 It's also going to require a massive, massive investment by every motor camp, motel, and hotel in the country to have EV charging per motel unit\room, and additional charging outlets at every powered campsite throughout the country so you can charge your EV while road tripping around the country.

 

 

Doesn't have to happen overnight. As EV use grows, charger availability will lag but will grow. Which will allow EV use to increase further. 

 

I think EVs becoming mainstream is inevitable, as are driverless cars. But it might take a while.

 

 

 

 


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  # 1824436 18-Jul-2017 14:55
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The great thing about technology is that it constantly comes up with new and surprising ways of doing things. I am particularly impressed with the use of turbines to generate power for electric motors on big trucks. I think that is a brilliant example of thinking outside the box. If the limitations of batteries cannot be overcome, other ways will be found to do what is needed. 

 

 





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  # 1824438 18-Jul-2017 14:55
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MarkH67:

 

Simply park in a parking garage that has a charging point for every parking space, start charging and wonder off to have lunch.  If a parking garage has 1,000 spaces then I'm talking about there being 1,000 charging points - this garage would be attached to a large mall with a variety of shops including a range of different food outlets.

 

 

Would you put this 1000-car parking garage and associated megamall in Foxton, Sanson, Bulls, or Hunterville? (For Aucklanders and South Islanders, these are small towns about 2 hours drive from Wellington).

 

Each long weekend this parking garage would be full to overflowing; the rest of the time it would be at most 2% utilised.

 

 


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