Car boom looks like last hurrah for petrol power: Electric vehicles look set to take over?

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Car boom looks like last hurrah for petrol power: Electric vehicles look set to take over?

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# 1832553 27-Jul-2017 21:44

Batman:

tdgeek:

Mike Hosking what a d#ck. Anti EV. Its cheaper to get 70 litres of petrol and away you go for 1000km. And no charging network for EV. EV is 100 years old, hasn't worked. And don't follow UK as no one will, and they got sued by someone. Crazy. May as well look for at the next house on a hill and forget climate change, thats the kiwi attitude, well, some. And the rest don't even know

Re this climate change stuff, how 'green' is our power? I know many countries still burn coal anyway.

80% is renewables. Which is hydro and geothermal. And our emissions are increasing.

frednz

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# 1832744 28-Jul-2017 11:20

Why does Hosking say NZ has no charging network? How do you define the term "charging network"? I thought we are doing quite well and are steadily increasing the number of charging stations around the country.

frankv

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# 1832791 28-Jul-2017 12:06

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frednz: Why does Hosking say NZ has no charging network?

Because Hosking has morphed from a journalist into a self-absorbed moron who believes he is worth as much as he is paid.

Lastman

236 posts

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# 1832850 28-Jul-2017 12:58

Batman:
shk292:

tdgeek:

Id say the reliability of EV engine over ICE is substantial? Far less moving parts. Thats probably more risk than EV centric risks?

Seriously? Do people have anxiety that their ICE won't start or will break down. I can remember the last time my car randomly broke down through an engine fault - it was 1989, and a faulty oil pressure sensor meant that I stopped the car as a precaution. The last British-made car I bought

The only other time I've been unable to use my car was through a flat battery

Ah, you weren't in a manual car then :) I recall pushing my Honda Civic by the A pillars, then jumping in and whacking in 2nd gear and cough sputter vroom!

Modern cars are very relable but they do wear out in ways that electric cars won't. Most cars that have been in service for a while will develop some fault with the cooling system, clutch, power steering etc

EVs won't need regular oil and filter changes. An environmental bonus in itself.

Batteries will need replacing but that is a trade-off against motor fuel and it's footprint and infrastructure.

EVs at least have the potential to have a different upgrade paradigm than the, "I need the latest model" one.

Linuxluver

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# 1832968 28-Jul-2017 16:11

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frednz: Why does Hosking say NZ has no charging network? How do you define the term "charging network"? I thought we are doing quite well and are steadily increasing the number of charging stations around the country.

Hoskings is just a liar. Plain and simple.

He knows the people who run Charge.Net. They gave him a Tesla to drive for a week.

I'm amazed TVNZ put a sleaze like him on TV every night. Must be on orders from the government. It can't be because he's good at informing anyone of anything.

I've got him in my Paul Henry file where I keep toxic media waste material.

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Linuxluver

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# 1832972 28-Jul-2017 16:16

shk292:

tdgeek:

Id say the reliability of EV engine over ICE is substantial? Far less moving parts. Thats probably more risk than EV centric risks?

Seriously? Do people have anxiety that their ICE won't start or will break down. I can remember the last time my car randomly broke down through an engine fault - it was 1989, and a faulty oil pressure sensor meant that I stopped the car as a precaution. The last British-made car I bought

The only other time I've been unable to use my car was through a flat battery

You've done well.

Can you say that was with zero servicing?

This looks like the old cigarettes cause cancer argument: "My Nana lived to be 90 and smoked a pack a day!". That's fine. She was lucky. Cigs still cause cancer.

EVs are generally more reliable and require less maintenance. Granted this view is based on experience mainly of the Nissan LEAF...an incredibly reliable car. I'm sure there are Evs out there that aren't as reliable because of bad design or poor build quality.

Either way.....if the EV doesn't have the 'thing'....whatever it might be....then that thing can't break or wear out. As Evs have vastly fewer moving parts and there are zero explosions in the engine, ever.......they tend to not wear out as much or as soon.

But your car sounds like a treasure.

Update: Reading it again, I don't think there is anxiety the ICE car will break down. I think it's just a difference in the ongoing cost of maintaining an ICE vs an EV. The "anxiety" might be more around the money many people need to spend to keep the ICE rolling.....and don't need to spend if they have an EV with far fewer moving parts and motors that don't host explosions several thousand times / minute.

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Sidestep

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# 1832978 28-Jul-2017 16:28

Linuxluver:

shk292:

tdgeek:

Id say the reliability of EV engine over ICE is substantial? Far less moving parts. Thats probably more risk than EV centric risks?

Seriously? Do people have anxiety that their ICE won't start or will break down. I can remember the last time my car randomly broke down through an engine fault - it was 1989, and a faulty oil pressure sensor meant that I stopped the car as a precaution. The last British-made car I bought

The only other time I've been unable to use my car was through a flat battery

You've done well.

Can you say that was with zero servicing?

This looks like the old cigarettes cause cancer argument: "My Nana lived to be 90 and smoked a pack a day!". That's fine. She was lucky. Cigs still cause cancer.

EVs are generally more reliable and require less maintenance. Granted this view is based on experience mainly of the Nissan LEAF...an incredibly reliable car. I'm sure there are Evs out there that aren't as reliable because of bad design or poor build quality.

Either way.....if the EV doesn't have the 'thing'....whatever it might be....then that thing can't break or wear out. As Evs have vastly fewer moving parts and there are zero explosions in the engine, ever.......they tend to not wear out as much or as soon.

But your car sounds like a treasure.

I wouldn't be surprised if the drive motor on a Leaf lasts nearly forever, but after a quick look over one recently - don't they have a trans axle/differential (reduction drive) with oil that needs changing?

And it's still has wheel bearings, CV joints, radiator fans, & water pump, a steering rack...tie rod ends, suspension parts like shocks, struts & bushes, an A/C compressor.. even door hinges can fail with time and use.

There are various sensors and modules to fall over. A resolver failure (like any speed/cam sensor failure) would probably leave you stuck & cost $..

Don't get me wrong, I can see EV's are the likely future for city driving - and I'm sure I'll have one before too long. I'll just wait till you early adopters have ironed all the wrinkles out..

Linuxluver

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# 1832981 28-Jul-2017 16:29

Batman:

tdgeek:

Mike Hosking what a d#ck. Anti EV. Its cheaper to get 70 litres of petrol and away you go for 1000km. And no charging network for EV. EV is 100 years old, hasn't worked. And don't follow UK as no one will, and they got sued by someone. Crazy. May as well look for at the next house on a hill and forget climate change, thats the kiwi attitude, well, some. And the rest don't even know

Re this climate change stuff, how 'green' is our power? I know many countries still burn coal anyway.

IMO a better way to save the planet is not to buy big batteries to lug big batteries around but to stop using non degradable stuff aka 'plastic'. You might think you're not using plastic but I guarantee you'll be horrified how much 'plastic' large firms throw out - from hotels to hospitals, etc.

Yes you can go and buy your big batteries to lug your big batteries around, but it ain't the way to save the planet. Unless you stop air and sea travel, or your journalists air travel, or your politicians air travel, or your food air or sea travelling.

NZ has two coal turbines left at Huntly. That's it. The rest that burn fossil fuels are gas-fired. Those two coal-fired turbines were supposed to be gone next year, but Genesis is keeping them going for two more years after that. I know a lot of people who won't buy power from Genesis because they did that.

If anyone in NZ starts talking EVs and coal they haven't got two clues to rub together. Poor sods.

Batteries are actually good things. A car powered by electricy is 90% efficient in turning the energy in the battery into vehicular motion.

Whereas petrol / diesel....... "Passenger car diesel engines have energy efficiency of up to 41% but more typically 30%, and petrol engines of up to 37.3%, but more typically 20%. That is one of the reasons why diesels have better fuel efficiency than equivalent petrolcars. A common margin is 25% more miles per gallon for an efficient turbodiesel."

Much less efficient.

Then consider that EV power travels at light speed across the world on wires....and fossil fuels need to be moved about in bulk, physically, by large ships, trains and or trucks. So when it comes to EVs the ONLY thing you need to "lug around" is the battery.

I totally agree with you on plastic bags. Let's do all these good things. It's not a matter of either / or.

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Linuxluver

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# 1833008 28-Jul-2017 16:43

Sidestep:

Linuxluver:

shk292:

tdgeek:

Id say the reliability of EV engine over ICE is substantial? Far less moving parts. Thats probably more risk than EV centric risks?

Seriously? Do people have anxiety that their ICE won't start or will break down. I can remember the last time my car randomly broke down through an engine fault - it was 1989, and a faulty oil pressure sensor meant that I stopped the car as a precaution. The last British-made car I bought

The only other time I've been unable to use my car was through a flat battery

You've done well.

Can you say that was with zero servicing?

This looks like the old cigarettes cause cancer argument: "My Nana lived to be 90 and smoked a pack a day!". That's fine. She was lucky. Cigs still cause cancer.

EVs are generally more reliable and require less maintenance. Granted this view is based on experience mainly of the Nissan LEAF...an incredibly reliable car. I'm sure there are Evs out there that aren't as reliable because of bad design or poor build quality.

Either way.....if the EV doesn't have the 'thing'....whatever it might be....then that thing can't break or wear out. As Evs have vastly fewer moving parts and there are zero explosions in the engine, ever.......they tend to not wear out as much or as soon.

But your car sounds like a treasure.

I wouldn't be surprised if the drive motor on a Leaf lasts nearly forever, but after a quick look over one recently - don't they have a trans axle/differential (reduction drive) with oil that needs changing?

And it's still has wheel bearings, CV joints, radiator fans, & water pump, a steering rack...tie rod ends, suspension parts like shocks, struts & bushes, an A/C compressor.. even door hinges can fail with time and use.

There are various sensors and modules to fall over. A resolver failure (like any speed/cam sensor failure) would probably leave you stuck & cost $..

Don't get me wrong, I can see EV's are the likely future for city driving - and I'm sure I'll have one before too long. I'll just wait till you early adopters have ironed all the wrinkles out..

I'm told the drive train / axil is a sealed unit and you don't need to lubricate it as it doesn't leak. No spots on the floor in the garage.

Yes, absolutely the wheel bearing and suspension will need maintenance like any car. Though I'm told the smoother acceleration and regenerative braking typical in EVs tends to reduce the wear and tear. Same with the brakes. I generally just use mine right that point of stopping. A BMW i3 will come to a complete halt if you take the foot off the accelerator and the brakes are never used at all in that context....unless you need to stop faster than the regen is doing for you.....and once you get used to it, you don't do that very often.

Yes. There things that can break. But most of them are solid state and don't move. In an ICE car it's the moving bits that break most often.....the belts and pistons and rods and gearboxes...and the exhaust system (non-existent in an EV).

Most of the wrinkles were ironed out when the petrol engines were removed. :-) You just won't move from the tar-paper shack into the 3-bedroom home because it isn't a palace yet. :-)

C'mon in. The water's fine. I'm saying that as someone who made the change over a year ago.....and no going back. It's just better, even now, as it is.

Granted...I do stop every couple of hours on a road trip to top up the battery. But that's usually because I also need to find a loo. The car has more range than my bladder. :-)

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MikeAqua

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# 1833024 28-Jul-2017 17:16

I've personally owned 5 vehicles since 1993 with build dates ranging from built from 1984 to 2014. I've never had a significant mechanical issue that wouldn't be described as wear and tear.

The big ticket items have been replacement of brake and suspension components. Generally around the 150 - 200k mark and always on tow vehicles. Other than that it's belts oil filters.

The 20k purchase premium for one EV would pay for all the maintenance performed in 25 years of motoring across 5 vehicles (800/year).

I haven't included tyres as presumably EVs use those too?

Mike

tdgeek

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# 1833030 28-Jul-2017 17:18

How much does it cost to charge? Say a full charge.

How many kWh's?

How much does that full charge cost?

Charge time to get another hour?

At home if you had solar PV, any charge when there is generation is free

Ge0rge

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# 1833036 28-Jul-2017 17:36

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Linuxluver:
I'm told the drive train / axil is a sealed unit and you don't need to lubricate it as it doesn't leak.

If I was told that I would polieltely tell the person that they have no idea what they are talking about and walk away from them. None of my vehicles leave puddles on ground and yet I know full well that if I don't change the fuilds, then the fuild itself will degrade and break down through shear forces and contaminants (metal filings from gears rubbing etc).

I have worked with equipment that has been claimed to be sealed and "maintenance free" for the lifetime of the equipment. What generally happens is these things fail, and we open them up and find that the lubricating fluid has broken down, hence the failure. The manufactuerer will claim that we didn't need to change the fluid for the lifetime of the equipment, and they'd technically be correct, but if we had changed the fluid, that lifetime might have been significantly longer...

I don't want it to sound like I am jumping in here just to pick - I have been following this thread with great interest and definitely agree that an EV has less maintenance and is the way to go - but I certainly hope that I would be able to do my own preventitive maintenace on an EV that I own - sealed units always raise my suspicions.

Lastman

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# 1833039 28-Jul-2017 17:46

Sidestep:
Linuxluver:

shk292:

tdgeek:

Id say the reliability of EV engine over ICE is substantial? Far less moving parts. Thats probably more risk than EV centric risks?

Seriously? Do people have anxiety that their ICE won't start or will break down. I can remember the last time my car randomly broke down through an engine fault - it was 1989, and a faulty oil pressure sensor meant that I stopped the car as a precaution. The last British-made car I bought

The only other time I've been unable to use my car was through a flat battery

You've done well.

Can you say that was with zero servicing?

This looks like the old cigarettes cause cancer argument: "My Nana lived to be 90 and smoked a pack a day!". That's fine. She was lucky. Cigs still cause cancer.

EVs are generally more reliable and require less maintenance. Granted this view is based on experience mainly of the Nissan LEAF...an incredibly reliable car. I'm sure there are Evs out there that aren't as reliable because of bad design or poor build quality.

Either way.....if the EV doesn't have the 'thing'....whatever it might be....then that thing can't break or wear out. As Evs have vastly fewer moving parts and there are zero explosions in the engine, ever.......they tend to not wear out as much or as soon.

But your car sounds like a treasure.

I wouldn't be surprised if the drive motor on a Leaf lasts nearly forever, but after a quick look over one recently - don't they have a trans axle/differential (reduction drive) with oil that needs changing?

And it's still has wheel bearings, CV joints, radiator fans, & water pump, a steering rack...tie rod ends, suspension parts like shocks, struts & bushes, an A/C compressor.. even door hinges can fail with time and use.

There are various sensors and modules to fall over. A resolver failure (like any speed/cam sensor failure) would probably leave you stuck & cost $..

Don't get me wrong, I can see EV's are the likely future for city driving - and I'm sure I'll have one before too long. I'll just wait till you early adopters have ironed all the wrinkles out..

The point we are making is that, all things being equal, electric cars will have a much lower physical maintenance regime because there is much less to maintain.

The Tesla Model 3 doesn't even have a dashboard, just a computer screen. That introduces a whole new set of fears I guess, an update has killed my car!

pctek

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# 1833051 28-Jul-2017 18:50

All our lives, we have bought second hand cars, newest 15 yrs old, oldest 30.

Can't see a sudden change with most people, for that reason - budget.

By second hand I mean cheapest was $500, most expensive $5000, and that was technically a classic.

And the thing with electric second hand is the batteries, which is a massive cost.

Kind of glad I won't be here by then, I feel sorry for the grandkid. She'll be surrounded by rules, nanny state, monitoring and enforced living in every way.

Assuming it hasn't gone to crap totally by then.

We just need to stop breeding like flies.....

smalltrader

151 posts

Master Geek

# 1833057 28-Jul-2017 18:57

In the long run, EV could well be more raliable than ICE cars simply because it has less moving parts. However, ICE cars have been around for over 100 years and most of the kinks have already been sorted. Unlike EV which is still in its infancy. JD Power and US Consumer reports have both rated Telsa cars to be below average in reliability (just do a Google search).

No doubt the EV will mature over time and become more reliable but nothing is immune from V1.0 problems.

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