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372 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #1867015 15-Sep-2017 16:57
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jaymz:

 

A battery is a critical piece of the car, so knowing the approximate replacement costs would be essential if I was going to consider buying a EV car.

 

 

Essential?  I think the correct word would be 'Impossible'.

 

How would you propose finding out the 8 year from now price of a battery?  If you have a way of seeing into the future then surely it would be better to find out what the next winning Lotto numbers are going to be?


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  #1867053 15-Sep-2017 19:21
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MarkH67:

 

jaymz:

 

A battery is a critical piece of the car, so knowing the approximate replacement costs would be essential if I was going to consider buying a EV car.

 

 

Essential?  I think the correct word would be 'Impossible'.

 

How would you propose finding out the 8 year from now price of a battery?  If you have a way of seeing into the future then surely it would be better to find out what the next winning Lotto numbers are going to be?

 



It's a standard not used for ICE cars. 

"I won't buy this car unless I know how much a replacement engine is in 8 years." 

Or pick any other part of any car. 

Adding: But I hear the uncertainty about a new thing. Best way to get over that is embrace it......then you (most people, anyway) realise it's not a big issue. 





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Circumspice
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  #1867068 15-Sep-2017 20:21
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Couple of things:

 

1) some on this thread have asked about cost of battery replacement. I asked Cockram Nissan in Chch a few weeks ago and was told $16k for whole battery pack for my 24kWh Leaf. The numbers from US ~$US5-6k are well off (and those numbers are a couple of years old now too). Can someone else corroborate?

 

2) I'm slowly coming to conclusion that I've a lemon of a battery, perhaps because of excessive quick charging by previous owner. Leaf 2013, 39000km with SOH 76% (10/12 bars) having lost ~3.2 AHr over past 12 months. Assuming linear decline (maybe dodgy assumption), come the 10 year mark, it'll be around 30 Ahr ~ SOH 50% ~ 6/12 bars. Lesson learnt: should've got Leafspy data before purchase. It's been great in all other respects (as the WOF garage tech put it in a resigned tone "there's not much you need to do for this car is there"). Nevertheless, it's been a bit of a lemon purchase, but there're ICE lemons too that've been bought from lack of due diligence...

 

3) if anyone's got any idea how much the Model 3 is expected to cost in NZ would be nice to know for comparison with incoming Leaf 2018. 


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Uber Geek


  #1867081 15-Sep-2017 20:31
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MarkH67:

 

jaymz:

 

A battery is a critical piece of the car, so knowing the approximate replacement costs would be essential if I was going to consider buying a EV car.

 

 

Essential?  I think the correct word would be 'Impossible'.

 

How would you propose finding out the 8 year from now price of a battery?  If you have a way of seeing into the future then surely it would be better to find out what the next winning Lotto numbers are going to be?

 

 

Look, it appears you are wanting to pick a fight about this, but I'm not.  

 

I simply said what I would be looking into if I was going to consider buying an EV. Having an idea what the cost of the battery was in today's market would give a good idea on what to save for as you will need to replace it at some point.

 

 

 

paulchinnz:

 

Couple of things:

 

1) some on this thread have asked about cost of battery replacement. I asked Cockram Nissan in Chch a few weeks ago and was told $16k for whole battery pack for my 24kWh Leaf. The numbers from US ~$US5-6k are well off (and those numbers are a couple of years old now too). Can someone else corroborate?

 

 

 

 

Wow that is pretty expensive! I take that cost will include time to install the battery as well.

 

Definately food for thought, especially if you are paying $10k or more for an EV second hand. You could buy another for the cost of the battery alone!


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Uber Geek


  #1867100 15-Sep-2017 21:03
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frednz:

 

Linuxluver:

 

frednz:

 

 

 

The "climate emergency thing" is also clearly grasped by most people these days. But, is the same pressure being put on people who frequently fly, to stay at home because of how damaging aircraft are to the planet? And is the same pressure put on farmers to get rid of all their cows because their methane emissions are much more damaging than CO2 emissions? We all want to do our very best for the planet, but we also have to accept that this can't be done over night and must be driven by Governments.

 

For some people, petrol vehicles are essential to their survival and their only alternative would be to walk everywhere, use public transport, or ride on horseback until prices of EVs come down and their range increases.

 

But public transport is far from green and even horses fart, so EV enthusiasts, just be patient and stop the alarmist talk, please!!!!

 

And remember, Earth’s hottest periods—the Hadean, the late Neoproterozoic, the PETM—occurred before humans existed.

 



If people really understood, they would see the need to do something about it...both personally and politically. For now, I agree a lot of people 'get it'.....but many haven't made the leap to doing something about it with a sense of urgency.  "I don't like the colour, I'll wait for next years model" (example) isn't someone who sees themselves playing any immediate role in addressing emissions. 

As for flying or farming, we can all engage in what-about-ery.....it's a nice distraction from taking personal ownership of our own emissions because the world and our descendants need us to. People will need to fly around. So let's look at other ways to do that. Farmers have a problem if people go vegetarian.....as they will have to grow something else (if the land allows it - a lot of livestock land isn't suitable for cropping).

One problem at a time. I see two steps you and I can take today. We can address our own emissions....and vote for a government that will help address all excess emissions. Maybe a grow meat in vats. Maybe we house herds and extract the methane form the air in the building they are housed in. People have been wintering livestock indoors for centuries. We're just not used to it in NZ. 

One problem at a time.....starting with you and me. 


  

 

 

 

OK, here's Problem No. 1: For every EV imported into NZ, there are several hundred used and new petrol vehicles still being imported. Are any of the political parties concerned with this, are they going to stop this situation? If so by what date?


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  #1867101 15-Sep-2017 21:03

paulchinnz:

 

 

 

2) I'm slowly coming to conclusion that I've a lemon of a battery, perhaps because of excessive quick charging by previous owner. Leaf 2013, 39000km with SOH 76% (10/12 bars) having lost ~3.2 AHr over past 12 months. Assuming linear decline (maybe dodgy assumption), come the 10 year mark, it'll be around 30 Ahr ~ SOH 50% ~ 6/12 bars. Lesson learnt: should've got Leafspy data before purchase. It's been great in all other respects (as the WOF garage tech put it in a resigned tone "there's not much you need to do for this car is there"). Nevertheless, it's been a bit of a lemon purchase, but there're ICE lemons too that've been bought from lack of due diligence...

 

 

Battery controllers will often use "coulomb counting" - comparing power in Vs power out of the battery to measure state of charge. But this means that if it has be awhile since the battery was drained to the point that the controller disables the car. Often the controller won't know that the battery has lost some capacity.

 

It has been said in other threads that the state of health and charge counters can be reset to zero. Meaning it is possible to get a good leafspy report on a degraded battery. Best way to test - charge car to 100%, drive car until it stops due to the battery going flat. (Pick a time for the test drive when you can drive on the motorway or open road at 100Km/Hr continuously). Record how far you were able to drive before it stopped. And check the cell voltages using leafspy when the battery is almost empty - big differences in the individual cell voltages is bad. @Ruki is far better placed to advise on this than me.






Circumspice
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  #1867102 15-Sep-2017 21:10
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Thanks @aredwood 

 

Maybe less of an issue as bigger and better batteries come out - less need to game the counters. However, therein lies another issue - imagine trying to drive a 60kWh Leaf from 100% to turtle as a test drive ... that's dedication!


 
 
 
 


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  #1867175 16-Sep-2017 07:53
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paulchinnz:

Thanks @aredwood 


Maybe less of an issue as bigger and better batteries come out - less need to game the counters. However, therein lies another issue - imagine trying to drive a 60kWh Leaf from 100% to turtle as a test drive ... that's dedication!



This. https://futurism.com/samsungs-new-electric-car-batteries-boost-range-to-600-kilometers/

Battery improvements are being announced almost weekly.

8 years from now will be a different world.




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My Tesla referral code: https://ts.la/steve52356


178 posts

Master Geek


  #1867232 16-Sep-2017 11:18
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I think, in the near future, you will see the use a combination of high density batteries and super-capacitors. This will give the best mixed usage/most cost-effective.

 

This way you can fast charge the super-capacitors (less than a minute), for a 50-100km range, and slow charge the dense batteries when it's parked at home/work/shops.


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