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2635 posts

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  Reply # 1868128 18-Sep-2017 15:47
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Fred99:

 

Does NZ Refining use the presence of the pipeline and infrastructure (Wiri Terminal) to lock out competition?

 

This was put together as part of the Muldoon/Bill Birch National Party "Think Big" projects - where state ownership of production was considered to be the answer, exposing that to commercial competition actively discouraged,

 

I wonder how many airports of similar and larger size elsewhere in the world are effectively locked in to one supplier, and supplied over a pipeline from a single refinery the distance that Marsden Point is from the airport.

 

The refinery is a "Toll operator", it doesn't own any product, it simply processes it for its clients (The Majors- who are also its controlling shareholders) If the refinery was charging too much, they would simply import refined product directly,

 

Its not NZR locking out the competition, if anything its the Major fuel companies,

 

But unless you are going to subsidise a government owned open access refinery pipe and terminal (with billions of taxpayer dollars) so the international Airlines can potentially get marginal cheaper fuel, - I think most people would say the government has higher priorities and the current system works well enough.

 

NZ's real problem is that it is too small to justify multiple large refineries.....

 

 


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  Reply # 1868132 18-Sep-2017 15:55
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Coil:

 

Fred99:

 

Does NZ Refining use the presence of the pipeline and infrastructure (Wiri Terminal) to lock out competition?

 

This was put together as part of the Muldoon/Bill Birch National Party "Think Big" projects - where state ownership of production was considered to be the answer, exposing that to commercial competition actively discouraged,

 

I wonder how many airports of similar and larger size elsewhere in the world are effectively locked in to one supplier, and supplied over a pipeline from a single refinery the distance that Marsden Point is from the airport.

 

 

 

 

We sorta don't have much of an option. Unless you are willing to open a port waikato refinery? 
Also appears our much larger neighbor has the same issue.

 

http://bara.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/A-Competitive-Supply-of-Jet-Fuel-at-Australias-Major-International-Airports-December-2014.pdf 

 

 

Yeah - as I mentioned in a post above, was almost stuck in Melbourne when they ran out of A1 last year - as a tanker load (ship) had been rejected on quality checks on arrival.  Not sure how long it took them to sort that out.


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 1868136 18-Sep-2017 16:07
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wellygary:

 

Fred99:

 

Does NZ Refining use the presence of the pipeline and infrastructure (Wiri Terminal) to lock out competition?

 

This was put together as part of the Muldoon/Bill Birch National Party "Think Big" projects - where state ownership of production was considered to be the answer, exposing that to commercial competition actively discouraged,

 

I wonder how many airports of similar and larger size elsewhere in the world are effectively locked in to one supplier, and supplied over a pipeline from a single refinery the distance that Marsden Point is from the airport.

 

The refinery is a "Toll operator", it doesn't own any product, it simply processes it for its clients (The Majors- who are also its controlling shareholders) If the refinery was charging too much, they would simply import refined product directly,

 

Its not NZR locking out the competition, if anything its the Major fuel companies,

 

But unless you are going to subsidise a government owned open access refinery pipe and terminal (with billions of taxpayer dollars) so the international Airlines can potentially get marginal cheaper fuel, - I think most people would say the government has higher priorities and the current system works well enough.

 

NZ's real problem is that it is too small to justify multiple large refineries.....

 

 

 

 

My point there is that if they (potential competitor to supply through NZR) wanted to undercut on price - they might be able to for petrol/diesel, but probably don't have access to the infrastructure to get into the jet fuel business.  I presume the airport is supplied by pipeline from Wiri?

 

 


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  Reply # 1868142 18-Sep-2017 16:21
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Fred99:

 

My point there is that if they (potential competitor to supply through NZR) wanted to undercut on price - they might be able to for petrol/diesel, but probably don't have access to the infrastructure to get into the jet fuel business.  I presume the airport is supplied by pipeline from Wiri?

 

 

 

See para 265 onward , with regard to JUHI competition at AIAL

 

https://www.comcom.govt.nz/dmsdocument/14318

 

You are asking a moot point,

 

But I guess if another major wanted in on the JUHI operation and was prepared to pay the other the appropriate access charge ( or take an ownership stake) they would consider giving them access,

 

If they didn't I guess the ComCom would be asked to investigate an abuse of the monopoly...


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  Reply # 1868157 18-Sep-2017 17:36
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sbiddle:

 

 

 

Surely the big question is why there is no ability to transfer fuel to Wiri from Onehunga where the pipeline runs straight past the wharf?

 

 

Do you mean berth a tanker-ship at Onehunga and pump from there to Wiri?

 

If so, I imagine there are three issues: -

 

1) Getting the right sort of tanker-ship e.g. the Kakariki or Matuku, over the (notorious) Manukau bar and up to the Onehunga wharf (channel depths, tugs etc) and securely berthing there.

 

2) Security.  There is tight security around jet-fuel - for obvious reasons. 

 

3) Doing the actual pumping from a ship at Onehunga to Wiri (not trivial)





Mike

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  Reply # 1868158 18-Sep-2017 17:40
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Have they actually said when this damage could have occurred? Couldn't it have been done on installation, or many years ago?

 

When it was first reported, the media made it sound like a digger had done the damage on thursday. But it appears it was caused some time ago and the pipe was weakened overtime by corrosion, as moisture got through the protective layer, and the swamp kauri area was potentially more acidic. Sounds like there was also some bad luck with it too. My worry is that there aren't other areas that have damage from past work near the pipe, which would be almost impossible to detect without digging it up.

 

 


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  Reply # 1868175 18-Sep-2017 18:31
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MikeAqua:

 

sbiddle:

 

 

 

Surely the big question is why there is no ability to transfer fuel to Wiri from Onehunga where the pipeline runs straight past the wharf?

 

 

Do you mean berth a tanker-ship at Onehunga and pump from there to Wiri?

 

If so, I imagine there are three issues: -

 

1) Getting the right sort of tanker-ship e.g. the Kakariki or Matuku, over the (notorious) Manukau bar and up to the Onehunga wharf (channel depths, tugs etc) and securely berthing there.

 

2) Security.  There is tight security around jet-fuel - for obvious reasons. 

 

3) Doing the actual pumping from a ship at Onehunga to Wiri (not trivial)

 

 

Agree totally,

 

A short pipeline from the tank farm to Wiri would be the best solution, it is a short run and a tanker would only take 6 hours or so from Marsden point refinery.

 

To go from Marsden Point to Onehunga would take 2 - 3 days weather dependent.

 

John

 

 





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  Reply # 1868368 19-Sep-2017 08:42
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I wonder how much of the time to fix this is because of OSH. 

 

Having googled around, there have been a few other pipeline breakages around the world.   But, the pipes were fixed very quickly and airports seem to store around 3 days of fuel. 

 

The pipeline company says they have all the parts ready to go in case of pipe breakage. 

 

Kiwis are just exceptionally slow at doing infrastructure. 

 

 


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  Reply # 1868375 19-Sep-2017 08:56
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sbiddle:

 

Batman:

 

In New Zealand, the mentality is "it's never happened before, why are you worried?".

 

It's never happened before, she'll be right.

 

Even if it's happened once, they call it a 1 in a 100 (or other number) year event, and so she'll also be right.

 

 

There is nobody even in the industry calling for another pipeline.

 

 

It's called Risk Assessment, people.

 

If the consequences of an event are severe (i.e. Potentially significant financial losses to the wider economy and disruption of the nationally important tourist industry) then you still mitigate the risk even if the chances of it occurring are low.

 

And besides damage to electricity cables, sewer lines, fibre optic cables, gas lines and water pipes from digger strikes are hardly uncommon events.

 

Unless this thing was literally 5m+ below ground level then I'd say there was a reasonable chance of it getting hit at some point.


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  Reply # 1868377 19-Sep-2017 08:58
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surfisup1000:

 

 

 

Kiwis are just exceptionally slow at doing infrastructure. 

 

 

Unless it's a four lane highway swinging past some voters in a marginal constituency. :) 


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  Reply # 1868380 19-Sep-2017 09:01
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Four gas stations in AKL are out of 95 due to supply issues, I assume related? Or fake news?


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  Reply # 1868382 19-Sep-2017 09:03
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tdgeek:

 

Four gas stations in AKL are out of 95 due to supply issues, I assume related? Or fake news?

 

 

 

 

Filled up with some Primo BP 98 this morning without seeing any increased costs or 91 shortage. 

 

 




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  Reply # 1868383 19-Sep-2017 09:04
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Coil:

 

tdgeek:

 

Four gas stations in AKL are out of 95 due to supply issues, I assume related? Or fake news?

 

 

 

 

Filled up with some Primo BP 98 this morning without seeing any increased costs or 91 shortage. 

 

 

 

 

Enjoy your last tank of fuel Tim :) Make it last! (no pun intended)




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  Reply # 1868427 19-Sep-2017 10:17
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sbiddle:

 

Batman:

 

Apparently they cannot supply fuel using tanker trucks ... not sure why ...

 

 

It's not so much they can't - but how many they'd need.

 

From memory I think a large fuel tanker holds about 15,000l of fuel. I'd need about 7-8 of those tankers just to fully fuel a 777 for a long-haul flight.

 

While nobody has said publically how much fuel Auckland airport uses you're realistically looking at hundreds, if not over 1000 tanker journeys per day from Whangarei to the airport just to meet demand.

 

To me the biggest issue would be Auckland running out of petrol. Nobody has quite tried to scare people yet but surely that must also be a possibility.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And as you predicted, it is now happening.

 

@Linuxluver would be pleased, except that he's worried about failing to burn carbon all the way to Sydney ... just wait till AKL has a power outage Linux!


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  Reply # 1868430 19-Sep-2017 10:20
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Could they start using Hamilton and bus folks through to Auckland or fly to other regions from there.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 It's our only home, lets clean it up then...

 

Take My Advice, Pull Down Your Pants And Slide On The Ice!

 

 


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