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kryptonjohn
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  #2003330 27-Apr-2018 10:02
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tdgeek:

 

I dont get the issue with the fuel tax. Its actually a road tax.

 

 

But it (the new/increased 10c/l) is not a road tax. Chunks of it are going to public transport initiatives such as light rail, public transport etc. 


tdgeek
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  #2003345 27-Apr-2018 10:11
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kryptonjohn:

 

tdgeek:

 

I dont get the issue with the fuel tax. Its actually a road tax.

 

 

But it (the new/increased 10c/l) is not a road tax. Chunks of it are going to public transport initiatives such as light rail, public transport etc. 

 

 

Ok, yeah, its an overall transportation tax. Happening because someone undertaxed transport funding, or someone didnt spend what they recieved from taxation. End of the day, its catchup time. Same if you dont maintain your car or house, it will always catch up, and thats today

 

As to ChCh wanting a fuel tax, that strikes me as trendy. AKL and the Govt have been taken to task, so now its happening time to hop on the bandwagon and and get less flak. As a ratepayer here or AKL, I would want concrete facts on what you will recieve and what you will do, so it doesnt get lost over time


 
 
 
 


kryptonjohn
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  #2003357 27-Apr-2018 10:16
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tdgeek:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

tdgeek:

 

I dont get the issue with the fuel tax. Its actually a road tax.

 

 

But it (the new/increased 10c/l) is not a road tax. Chunks of it are going to public transport initiatives such as light rail, public transport etc. 

 

 

Ok, yeah, its an overall transportation tax. Happening because someone undertaxed transport funding, or someone didnt spend what they recieved from taxation. End of the day, its catchup time. Same if you dont maintain your car or house, it will always catch up, and thats today

 

As to ChCh wanting a fuel tax, that strikes me as trendy. AKL and the Govt have been taken to task, so now its happening time to hop on the bandwagon and and get less flak. As a ratepayer here or AKL, I would want concrete facts on what you will recieve and what you will do, so it doesnt get lost over time

 

 

If it's an overall transportation tax then it should fall on the overall population, not just car drivers. 


timmmay

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  #2003359 27-Apr-2018 10:17
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kryptonjohn:

 

Our petrol guzzling '06 NZ new Toyota Prado cost us ~ $35k in 2011 and looks like it's still worth ~ $18k today. Only lost around half in 7 years. Toyotas are slow to write down to zero!

 

 

They do pretty well. A new Toyota is quite a bit more than the Nissan we got recently though.

 

 

 

DataCraft:

 

Whats your rego and mileage ill give u a eValuation on it if you want? 

 

 

Where do you get that from?


tdgeek
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  #2003368 27-Apr-2018 10:23
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kryptonjohn:

 

 

 

If it's an overall transportation tax then it should fall on the overall population, not just car drivers. 

 

 

AKL wise you could rate it. Then people whine that they don't use roads or rail much. Whatever you do, someone will complain. So, no one wants a tax, then fine, no need to spend up on roads and rail as its all apparently ok.


kryptonjohn
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  #2003375 27-Apr-2018 10:31
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tdgeek:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

If it's an overall transportation tax then it should fall on the overall population, not just car drivers. 

 

 

AKL wise you could rate it. Then people whine that they don't use roads or rail much. Whatever you do, someone will complain. So, no one wants a tax, then fine, no need to spend up on roads and rail as its all apparently ok.

 

 

Nah then it just falls on rate payers. Why should granny living along in her house be paying for someone else's infrastructure benefits?

 

You could argue that everybody uses or benefits from the roads whether they drive cars or not, as they are essential infrastructure not only for personally getting around, but also for transporting the stuff you consume to stay alive and live your life. Unless they live completely off the grid on a mountain somewhere and never leave.

 

 

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2003385 27-Apr-2018 10:55
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kryptonjohn:

 

tdgeek:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

If it's an overall transportation tax then it should fall on the overall population, not just car drivers. 

 

 

AKL wise you could rate it. Then people whine that they don't use roads or rail much. Whatever you do, someone will complain. So, no one wants a tax, then fine, no need to spend up on roads and rail as its all apparently ok.

 

 

Nah then it just falls on rate payers. Why should granny living along in her house be paying for someone else's infrastructure benefits?

 

You could argue that everybody uses or benefits from the roads whether they drive cars or not, as they are essential infrastructure not only for personally getting around, but also for transporting the stuff you consume to stay alive and live your life. Unless they live completely off the grid on a mountain somewhere and never leave.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thats what Im saying.

 

You could tax it on Km travelled. That then gets to all consumers on a user pays basis.  You can add a levy on light rail fares, then no one uses it.


 
 
 
 


frankv
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  #2003397 27-Apr-2018 11:22
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kryptonjohn:

 

tdgeek:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

If it's an overall transportation tax then it should fall on the overall population, not just car drivers. 

 

 

AKL wise you could rate it. Then people whine that they don't use roads or rail much. Whatever you do, someone will complain. So, no one wants a tax, then fine, no need to spend up on roads and rail as its all apparently ok.

 

 

Nah then it just falls on rate payers. Why should granny living along in her house be paying for someone else's infrastructure benefits?

 

You could argue that everybody uses or benefits from the roads whether they drive cars or not, as they are essential infrastructure not only for personally getting around, but also for transporting the stuff you consume to stay alive and live your life. Unless they live completely off the grid on a mountain somewhere and never leave.

 

 

From my non-Aucklander POV, I don't really care how Auckland's infrastrucure is funded, so long as it is paid for by Aucklanders. If the rest of us subsidise Auckland, problems will just get worse. When Aucklanders pay the true cost of transport (including the cost of infrastructure), they'll make sensible decisions about whether to go for light rail or not, whether to take a bus instead, etc.

 

 


tripper1000
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  #2003400 27-Apr-2018 11:22
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kryptonjohn:

 

You could argue that everybody uses or benefits from the roads whether they drive cars or not, as they are essential infrastructure not only for personally getting around, but also for transporting the stuff you consume to stay alive and live your life. Unless they live completely off the grid on a mountain somewhere and never leave.

 

Yeah, that is the argument used to justify light vehicles subsidising trucks, however it is a hollow communist argument, because mostly it is robbing Peter to subsidise Peter.

 

I'd rather pay the true price of putting carrots (for example) on the supermarket shelf at the supermarket, than pay for some of the cost of my carrots when I buy my petrol. It's a bit daft when you think about the multiple parallel payment paths my money takes to ultimately redeem my wages for carrots. Bureaucracy clips the ticket on the way.

 

Auckland does already pay for public transport in the rates bill, it is just less transparent than in the good-ol' days when we got 2 rates bills, one from the local council and the other from the ARC.  We pay the same rates now they're just wrapped up in one bill from the big inefficient super-city.

 

 


kryptonjohn
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  #2003402 27-Apr-2018 11:27
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frankv:

 

From my non-Aucklander POV, I don't really care how Auckland's infrastrucure is funded, so long as it is paid for by Aucklanders. If the rest of us subsidise Auckland, problems will just get worse. When Aucklanders pay the true cost of transport (including the cost of infrastructure), they'll make sensible decisions about whether to go for light rail or not, whether to take a bus instead, etc.

 

 

I sympathise! 

 

But there's a vast amount of tax collected in Auckland and not so much in sparsely populated areas, yet those sparsely populated areas also need infrastructure such as roads built. So ring-fencing taxation income to be spent where it is collected is a slippery and risky slope.

 

This is the general problem for all of NZ including even Auckland - it is rather sparsely populated compared to many other first world countries which makes funding expensive infrastructure projects a real conundrum.

 

 


Delphinus
477 posts

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  #2003412 27-Apr-2018 11:32
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kryptonjohn:

 

tdgeek:

 

kryptonjohn:

 

tdgeek:

 

I dont get the issue with the fuel tax. Its actually a road tax.

 

 

But it (the new/increased 10c/l) is not a road tax. Chunks of it are going to public transport initiatives such as light rail, public transport etc. 

 

 

Ok, yeah, its an overall transportation tax. Happening because someone undertaxed transport funding, or someone didnt spend what they recieved from taxation. End of the day, its catchup time. Same if you dont maintain your car or house, it will always catch up, and thats today

 

As to ChCh wanting a fuel tax, that strikes me as trendy. AKL and the Govt have been taken to task, so now its happening time to hop on the bandwagon and and get less flak. As a ratepayer here or AKL, I would want concrete facts on what you will recieve and what you will do, so it doesnt get lost over time

 

 

If it's an overall transportation tax then it should fall on the overall population, not just car drivers. 

 

 

Car drivers benefit from it no matter how it's spent.

 

If it's spent on roads, they get better roads to drive their cars. 
If it's spent on rail/buses, then there will be less people driving cars, so the people still using the roads (and paying the fuel tax) get better roads (less congestion) to drive their cars. 


kryptonjohn
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  #2003420 27-Apr-2018 11:37
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Delphinus:

 

Car drivers benefit from it no matter how it's spent.

 

 

True.

 

 

If it's spent on roads, they get better roads to drive their cars. 
If it's spent on rail/buses, then there will be less people driving cars, so the people still using the roads (and paying the fuel tax) get better roads (less congestion) to drive their cars. 

 

 

But everybody else who also gets the benefit should contribute too.

 

 


tdgeek
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  #2003421 27-Apr-2018 11:45
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kryptonjohn:

 

Delphinus:

 

Car drivers benefit from it no matter how it's spent.

 

 

True.

 

 

If it's spent on roads, they get better roads to drive their cars. 
If it's spent on rail/buses, then there will be less people driving cars, so the people still using the roads (and paying the fuel tax) get better roads (less congestion) to drive their cars. 

 

 

But everybody else who also gets the benefit should contribute too.

 

 

 

 

Agree, but the benefits are very variable. I dont get a benefit from Chch when an Aucklander has less gridlock on thew way to work. The carrot truck gets a benefot that probably benefits most of NZ , except those that don't eat carrots. But if the truck company paid fuel tax, that goes on the price of carrots and the carrot consumer pays, as they should. If its a national tax issue who decides whose road gets done first?


kryptonjohn
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  #2003424 27-Apr-2018 11:49
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Yep. Not easy, is it!

 

 


Delphinus
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  #2003430 27-Apr-2018 11:58
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Which is why I like a targeted consumption tax, which a local fuel levy seems to apply. If you drive in Auckland, you fuel up in AKL, and that includes a tax which goes towards AKL transport. Same way that I think a toll road is fine. Only those using it are paying for it. 

 

@kryptonjohn "But everybody else who also gets the benefit should contribute too."

 

They already do through paying train/bus fares, and probably a section from the rates. I expect to date car drivers have been getting away with a free ride with regard to the benefit they get from driving on Auckland roads. 


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