Electric car total cost of ownership calculation

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Electric car total cost of ownership calculation

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Mad Scientist
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#2003692 27-Apr-2018 18:18

wellygary:

Batman:

I have to say with Labour's policies, there is a big hidden message to everyone.

While the petrol taxes keep piling up (who says they're going to stop at the latest tax), the EV owners and getting a free ride to *Auckland's new infrastructure developments.

It's robbing Peter (ICE owners) to give to Paul (EV owners).

Very clever.

The cleverness of it depends on you viewpoint,

Traditionally Labour's support base is those that are less well off, and have less ability to spend extra $1000s on a car...

This Labour is Jacinda's ideologies ... one of them is to wipe out oil from NZ.

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MarkH67

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#2003858 28-Apr-2018 06:24

frankv:

From my non-Aucklander POV, I don't really care how Auckland's infrastrucure is funded, so long as it is paid for by Aucklanders. If the rest of us subsidise Auckland, problems will just get worse. When Aucklanders pay the true cost of transport (including the cost of infrastructure), they'll make sensible decisions about whether to go for light rail or not, whether to take a bus instead, etc.

I'm wondering if this is a joke? How could anyone really suggest the idea of the rest of the country subsidising Auckland when the opposite would most certainly be true. The tax take (in all forms) from Auckland is huge, they would pay more than what is spent on them by quite a bit. In some small country area where there are not many people, therefore not much tax collected - that's where the expenditure is being subsidised, by income from the cities.

Of course there is good reason for putting a charge on fuel to encourage people to drive less, use public transport or share a car. There is also good reason to encourage EV usage, the bigger the city the more of a problem air pollution is.

frednz

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#2003936 28-Apr-2018 09:45

MarkH67:

frankv:

From my non-Aucklander POV, I don't really care how Auckland's infrastrucure is funded, so long as it is paid for by Aucklanders. If the rest of us subsidise Auckland, problems will just get worse. When Aucklanders pay the true cost of transport (including the cost of infrastructure), they'll make sensible decisions about whether to go for light rail or not, whether to take a bus instead, etc.

I'm wondering if this is a joke? How could anyone really suggest the idea of the rest of the country subsidising Auckland when the opposite would most certainly be true. The tax take (in all forms) from Auckland is huge, they would pay more than what is spent on them by quite a bit. In some small country area where there are not many people, therefore not much tax collected - that's where the expenditure is being subsidised, by income from the cities.

Of course there is good reason for putting a charge on fuel to encourage people to drive less, use public transport or share a car. There is also good reason to encourage EV usage, the bigger the city the more of a problem air pollution is.

I'm not sure that charging more for fuel is the best way to encourage EV usage. It might be if the prices of EVs, particularly new ones were even remotely reasonable when compared with the prices of equivalent new petrol vehicles.

The depreciation that an EV buyer can face is huge, particularly if you a buy a new EV for around $60,000. Think of the Hyundai Ionic at $66,000 for the top model and it only has a 28 kWh battery with a range of just 200 km. What are you going to be able to sell this for when 64 kWh battery EVs come on the market later this year? You'd be lucky if you got $40,000, so the depreciation of an EV is definitely the largest factor to take into account when doing the "total cost of ownership" calculation. The same applies even more so to buyers of a BMW i3 which has the potential for huge depreciation write-offs after a relatively short time.

Now even the second-hand market for EVs is expensive. Consider $30,000 - $35,000 for a 30 kWh Leaf which according to "Flip the Fleet" has a major potential battery degradation problem. This research goes to show that early adopters of EVs are likely to take big depreciation hits, far bigger than petrol vehicle owners because the technology is so fast moving and the market is not as stable as the petrol vehicle market.

No wonder Judith Collins said in Parliament recently that electric vehicles are for the wealthy, this is just so true!

MarkH67

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#2003937 28-Apr-2018 09:58

frednz:

I'm not sure that charging more for fuel is the best way to encourage EV usage. It might be if the prices of EVs, particularly new ones were even remotely reasonable when compared with the prices of equivalent new petrol vehicles.

The depreciation that an EV buyer can face is huge, particularly if you a buy a new EV for around $60,000. Think of the Hyundai Ionic at $66,000 for the top model and it only has a 28 kWh battery with a range of just 200 km. What are you going to be able to sell this for when 64 kWh EVs come on the market later this year? You'd be lucky if you got $40,000, so the depreciation of an EV is definitely the largest factor to take into account when doing the "total cost of ownership" calculation. The same applies even more so to buyers of a BMW i3 which has the potential for huge depreciation write-offs after a relatively short time

I have to agree with you on the new EVs costing too much. I think it is hard to economically justify the expense for the majority of drivers.

For 2nd hand: I swapped from a Honda ST1300 motorcycle to a 2015 24kWh Nissan Leaf for my commute. I sold the bike for $7k and bought the car for $21k and have been using the car ever since for my 70km/day commuting. I've worked out that I'll be saving ~$8k over the first 3 years, leaving me only $6k out of pocket. After 6 years I should have saved pretty much the entire price difference between the 2 vehicles.

Clearly with a 25km commute the savings would be a lot less than my 70km commute, people need to carefully assess their likely savings compared to the capital outlay.

I have a friend that commutes 3km each way, he recently bought a 2nd hand Toyota Corolla, I don't believe the extra cost of a 2nd hand Leaf would be justified in his case.

I have another friend that tells me his wife commutes 100km each way, 5 days a week - 1,000km per week. Unfortunately a 200km daily commute would be beyond the range of a 24 or 30 kWh Leaf. I know a Hyundai Ioniq is supposed to be capable of over 200km range, but would that be true after 3 years of battery degredation? But 1,000km per week is going to be really expensive in a petrol or diesel car, the economic case for an EV would not be hard to make, if not now then within a year or two at least. If it were possible to arrange power at the work carpark then the economic model would be MUCH better.

kryptonjohn

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#2003938 28-Apr-2018 10:01

200km/day - ouch! ]Nohere he plug in while at work during the day?

MarkH67

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#2003940 28-Apr-2018 10:07

kryptonjohn:

200km/day - ouch! ]Nohere he plug in while at work during the day?

Not that I know of. The workplace has a carpark for employees, I'd be talking to them if I was in that position. Whether they would be willing to do anything, I wouldn't know.

52 weeks in the year minus 4 weeks annual leave and ~2 weeks worth of statutory holidays = 46 weeks of work. 46 weeks x 1,000km = ~46,000kms per year.

The fuel bill + 4 oil & filter services + repairs & maintenance = a heap of money.

At the very least I'd look at a one-year-old Japanese import 60kWh EV at the end or 2019, it wouldn't be cheap but it would be cheaper than running a fossil fuel burner.

kryptonjohn

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#2003944 28-Apr-2018 10:21

He's potentially spending $10k p.a. on petrol let alone maintenance etc on 3-4 services per year - yikes

alasta

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#2004083 28-Apr-2018 13:59

Delphinus:

I'm not convinced this is a valid issue. How often do you drive 1000kms without stopping? I'm sure your family of 5 (or even just 1 driver) would be wanting a break and to stretch their legs a bit before continuing on. Since you can charge up in 30 mins, you'd just stop off for a break/lunch near a charger: https://charge.net.nz/map/

Doing the road trip over summer I was amazed at how many charging stations there are. Even in the middle of nowhere between Napier and Taupo.

I don't mind stopping off every two or three hours for a 30 minute charge, and it's great to see chargers popping up with this in mind. However, I really worry about the high probability of access to the chargers being blocked by idiots parking their clapped out old internal combustions cars in front of them.

I dread the thought of arriving in Taupo expecting a 30 minute lunch break while my car recharges, and then discovering that I actually have to wait two hours for a charging spot because people are parking at the charging stations unnecessarily.

MarkH67

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#2004093 28-Apr-2018 14:16

alasta:

I don't mind stopping off every two or three hours for a 30 minute charge, and it's great to see chargers popping up with this in mind. However, I really worry about the high probability of access to the chargers being blocked by idiots parking their clapped out old internal combustions cars in front of them.

I dread the thought of arriving in Taupo expecting a 30 minute lunch break while my car recharges, and then discovering that I actually have to wait two hours for a charging spot because people are parking at the charging stations unnecessarily.

I think this problem occurs because it's all a bit new and we are still working out how to do things.

I really believe that parking enforcement needs to step up and fine people for parking in EV charging spots when they are not charging or waiting for the charger. We also will obviously need more chargers, especially in places like Taupo. The free chargers should at some point change to paid chargers, which would cut down on people hogging them when not needed.

I also think that the reality of most current EVs is that they are good for short trips and commuting, but have some serious drawbacks for longer trips. The newer EVs coming out will eliminate most of those drawbacks.

For long trips, my 24kWh Leaf kinda sucks. Sure, I can stop at fast chargers, but then the battery gets hot. If I had a 2019 60kWh Nissan Leaf, then I could drive for 3-4 hours before needing to charge, that's plenty of time for the battery to cool down after the previous fast charge. My friend's wife could drive the 200km to work and back each day with no range anxiety - they would need a level 2 charger in the garage though, not that the price of a level 2 charger would be much compared to their current petrol spending.

I can envision a time, within only a few years, when EVs are the obvious solution with many benefits and no real drawbacks. Imagine a car with a 120kWh solid-state battery that will last the lifetime of the car with very little degradation, with a real-world range of around 720km. Why on earth would you choose a petrol powered car over that?

tdgeek

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#2004095 28-Apr-2018 14:19

MarkH67:

Imagine a car with a 120kWh solid-state battery that will last the lifetime of the car with very little degradation, with a real-world range of around 720km. Why on earth would you choose a petrol powered car over that?

Yep, and your kids laugh at you when you talk about the good old days! Nah, you're joking Dad.

alasta

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#2004160 28-Apr-2018 16:06

MarkH67:

I think this problem occurs because it's all a bit new and we are still working out how to do things.

I really believe that parking enforcement needs to step up and fine people for parking in EV charging spots when they are not charging or waiting for the charger. We also will obviously need more chargers, especially in places like Taupo. The free chargers should at some point change to paid chargers, which would cut down on people hogging them when not needed.

Unfortunately enforcement is usually under-resourced, as demonstrated on my street where I have to frequently call the council to remove cars blocking the footpath or my driveway. To prevent this type of abuse I think EV chargers are going to have to be clustered within enclosed spaces where people have to swipe a credit card to get in. I would be more than happy to pay a reasonable fee to use a charger if it meant that I could be sure there would be one available when I need it.

I also think that the reality of most current EVs is that they are good for short trips and commuting, but have some serious drawbacks for longer trips. The newer EVs coming out will eliminate most of those drawbacks.

For long trips, my 24kWh Leaf kinda sucks. Sure, I can stop at fast chargers, but then the battery gets hot. If I had a 2019 60kWh Nissan Leaf, then I could drive for 3-4 hours before needing to charge, that's plenty of time for the battery to cool down after the previous fast charge. My friend's wife could drive the 200km to work and back each day with no range anxiety - they would need a level 2 charger in the garage though, not that the price of a level 2 charger would be much compared to their current petrol spending.

I can envision a time, within only a few years, when EVs are the obvious solution with many benefits and no real drawbacks. Imagine a car with a 120kWh solid-state battery that will last the lifetime of the car with very little degradation, with a real-world range of around 720km. Why on earth would you choose a petrol powered car over that?

Agreed. The vast majority of trips in my existing diesel car are over 50km, and a signifiant chunk are over 250km, so current EV technology doesn't quite meet my needs. With fuel costs increasing I am thinking that my next vehicle is likely to be something like a Camry hybrid, and if I keep that for five years then EVs will be starting to look more attractive.

jarledb

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#2004162 28-Apr-2018 16:17

MarkH67:

I really believe that parking enforcement needs to step up and fine people for parking in EV charging spots when they are not charging or waiting for the charger.

A solid fix for regular cars parking in charging spots: Make them tow-away spots for non EV cars. That will make people stay well clear.

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frankv

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#2004306 28-Apr-2018 21:53

MarkH67:

frankv:

From my non-Aucklander POV, I don't really care how Auckland's infrastrucure is funded, so long as it is paid for by Aucklanders. If the rest of us subsidise Auckland, problems will just get worse. When Aucklanders pay the true cost of transport (including the cost of infrastructure), they'll make sensible decisions about whether to go for light rail or not, whether to take a bus instead, etc.

I'm wondering if this is a joke? How could anyone really suggest the idea of the rest of the country subsidising Auckland when the opposite would most certainly be true. The tax take (in all forms) from Auckland is huge, they would pay more than what is spent on them by quite a bit. In some small country area where there are not many people, therefore not much tax collected - that's where the expenditure is being subsidised, by income from the cities.

We're talking about transport here. Local government pays for roading, apart from State Highways. How do you see Aucklanders subsidising rural areas?

If you truly believe that Aucklanders pay more than their share of taxes, you would presumably support the concept of Aucklanders paying for their own infrastructure, since that would result in a drop in Aucklanders' taxes.

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#2004309 28-Apr-2018 22:05

jarledb:

MarkH67:

I really believe that parking enforcement needs to step up and fine people for parking in EV charging spots when they are not charging or waiting for the charger.

A solid fix for regular cars parking in charging spots: Make them tow-away spots for non EV cars. That will make people stay well clear.

hasn't stopped people parking in disabled parks

MarkH67

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#2004327 28-Apr-2018 23:26

frankv:

We're talking about transport here. Local government pays for roading, apart from State Highways. How do you see Aucklanders subsidising rural areas?

If you truly believe that Aucklanders pay more than their share of taxes, you would presumably support the concept of Aucklanders paying for their own infrastructure, since that would result in a drop in Aucklanders' taxes.

And some rural town with a couple of hundred people are paying for their share of state highways throughout that area?

No, I would not. I don't support separating out every different part of the country and saying "stuff everyone else, from now on we only pay for our own stuff". There are plenty of businesses based in Auckland that service the entire country, there is no point in developing a big separation of who pays for what. Tax is gathered from all of NZ and tax is spent throughout all of NZ. What about the infrastructure of Auckland that is used to transport goods from Auckland ports to the rest of the country? What about when you buy stuff in a shop that they get from their suppliers - who happen to be in Auckland? Why the 'us vs them' mentality?

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