Scrapping RUC and paying Diesel tax at the pump?

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#1998066 17-Apr-2018 20:11

davidcole:

Senecio:

As the owner of a light diesel SUV that runs at less than 5L/100km on the motorway I'd be happy to pay at the pump. Pretty sure it would work out cheaper for me.

and reduce your admin, of having to remember to buy road users at whatever kms you're up to (as the owner of a 3l diesel)

I've never really understood why people consider RUC renewal to be an administrative burden. I just accrue for the cost each month based on an assumed annual mileage, and then when I have exhausted my previous prepaid mileage it takes less than five minutes to go online and pay for the next allocation.

Geektastic

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#1998146 17-Apr-2018 21:54

Scrap all the pointless windscreen labels, install NPR cameras and make every WOF, REGO, RUC etc an online thing. This is the 21st century...

plod

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#1998217 17-Apr-2018 23:33

Something similar when you get a lpg cylinder filled, it’s the same price as when you fill a lpg capable car. Guess who gets the roading tax rebate on the lpg cylinder fill. It’s not the customer but the service station

Aredwood

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#1998221 17-Apr-2018 23:53

sbiddle:
The RUC system will need to be upgraded for electric vehicles when Labour finally decide to charge electric vehicle owners. They decided to defer that for another year.

I'm not sure whether changing the way diesel works in light of that would make sense.

This^^^

And part of that, they will be forced to introduce RUCs for petrol vehicles at the same time are requiring EVs to pay RUC.

If they don't, they run a risk that it would be cheaper to run plug in hybrids entirely on petrol. Rather than running them on electricity where possible. As how would you define the difference between say the Toyota prius plug in Vs the BMW i3 REX? As both can be recharged from an external power source,both can be driven as an EV, and both have an engine that is capable of recharging its batteries.

If you say that plug in hybrids are not liable for RUC, then the BMW i3 REX will then be the most desirable EV to own. Even if you never use the REX, you will save heaps by not needing to pay RUC.

And if you say that plug in hybrids are liable to pay RUC, Then the prius plug in will be the worst car to own. As the 1st gen only had a pure electric range of just 18Km. Meaning you would be paying both petrol tax and RUC.

The fairest system long term. Is simply put the environmental costs of burning petrol and diesel on respective fuel taxes. And put RUC on all vehicles. As EVs still cause costs to the roading network for things like traffic congestion. And since EVs have shorter range than ICE cars, they would tend to get used for shorter trips. But for inner city areas, this means more risk that people will drive an EV, instead of taking public transport, or cycling.

davidcole

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#1998254 18-Apr-2018 07:48

alasta:

davidcole:

Senecio:

As the owner of a light diesel SUV that runs at less than 5L/100km on the motorway I'd be happy to pay at the pump. Pretty sure it would work out cheaper for me.

and reduce your admin, of having to remember to buy road users at whatever kms you're up to (as the owner of a 3l diesel)

I've never really understood why people consider RUC renewal to be an administrative burden. I just accrue for the cost each month based on an assumed annual mileage, and then when I have exhausted my previous prepaid mileage it takes less than five minutes to go online and pay for the next allocation.

It's just a pain. I buy 2000km, then have to remember at 92000 km in my car to buy a new one, go online and order it, then swap them out. Yes I could buy a year, but why would i want to prepay the government that way, why should they earn the interest rather than me.

It's not a burden, it's just annoying. At least this way round I can control the spend though, rather than if it was after the fact at WOF time. This is why for non commercial vehicles - and again I class those as those without hub meters, it should be at the pump. Trucks can go to truck stops, or it's part of their fuel card to discount it (cos they sure as hell aren't paying cash for their go juice).

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Coil

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#1998255 18-Apr-2018 07:53

Geektastic:

Scrap all the pointless windscreen labels, install NPR cameras and make every WOF, REGO, RUC etc an online thing. This is the 21st century...

Ever heard of Eroad lol?

Sidestep

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#1998395 18-Apr-2018 11:04

davidcole:

It's not a burden, it's just annoying.

Yep, I'd be very surprised if Labour made changes that, in one swoop, would disadvantage and alienate the country's rural producers, just to help city people who can't remember to pay their RUC's.
If you want to privately own a diesel car or SUV – fine - but the majority of light diesel vehicles in NZ are in commercial use, and changing the way they're taxed will be an extra burden to them.

I've lived and worked in several places where 'dyed diesel' 'farm plates' or similar were used and find NZ's system far easier to use. It's very simple, if you drive it on the road, you pay Road User's tax.
Many of us still chafe at the loss of "Farm B" registration because of it's rampant misuse by city people to avoid conversion costs on their LHD Range Rovers and BMW SUV's.

davidcole:

This is why for non commercial vehicles - and again I class those as those without hub meters, it should be at the pump. Trucks can go to truck stops, or it's part of their fuel card to discount it (cos they sure as hell aren't paying cash for their go juice).

That's a common, and invalid distinction between commercial and non commercial vehicles. There are around 4 times as many light commercial vehicles as heavy on our roads.
All those Light diesel commercials use the same method as your car to record RUC's – the vehicle's (uncertified) odometer.

Like many rural people I own both a light commercial vehicle and a Heavy Vehicle (actually two - one with a Hubodometer, one with an exemption) and use the light vehicle far more than the heavy.
We require a Heavy Vehicle infrequently to take the tractor to town for servicing, pick up a load of posts, steel or machinery. But for those uses it's essential.
It's too expensive to use them for any other purposes. The rest of the time we use a light commercial flatdeck ute, with or without a trailer.

I tow our small (500l) farm tanker in to the normal - non truck stop - petrol station in town about once a month with our ute.
I often join a line of light commercial utes - farm and forestry, beekeepers and orchardists - carrying jerrycans or saddle tanks for off road diesel- and like them, I fill both from the same pump.

Even then a percentage of the diesel I, and many of my rural neighbours, put in the tanks of our RUC taxed vehicles is actually used off road.
The existing flat, mileage based, RUC doesn't distinguish that most of our rural miles are on gravel and local body funded roads, private roads on farms or in the forestry.

I'd welcome any future move to GPS based road charges.
Big companies like Fulton Hogan have GPS based systems that allow them to reclaim the % of RUC's accumulated off public roads.
Small businesses can't afford those but it will be much fairer once systems are in use that record actual road usage.

tripper1000

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#1998677 18-Apr-2018 15:28

I'm not sure which way the current Govt would jump on this one.

The Greens have such disorganised policies, they're likely to do something dopey and short sighted like put RUC on petrol hybrids. Last time they were in power they hiked RUC on the <3.5 tonne class, penalising diesel cars that are the most fuel efficient, lowest CO2 ICE vehicles on the road (that was before we knew diesel fumes gave everyone cancer).

Socialism wise: RUC is a way of subsidising trucking costs - it makes it easy to distort the way costs are shared amongst road users. According to the AA trucks don't pay their fair share and cars and light vehicle RUC and petrol users over-pay, so the govt would stick with the status quo to make rich National voters driving gas guzzlers subsidise the cost of getting groceries on the supermarket shelves for poor voter base. .

On the other hand, RUC is popular with farmers because they don't pay road tax for tractors etc. Greens and Labour are sworn enemies of the farmers (latest evidence = cancellation of a bunch or irrigation schemes), and the Greens/labour support base is mostly urban, so it would be a new fart tax on farmers.

The cynical side of me thinks this "no new taxes" weasel-words Govt is likely to want to have their cake and also eat it by keeping RUC and also impose an increase in "exiting diesel taxes".

elpenguino

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#1998706 18-Apr-2018 15:55

MikeB4:

What about boats, compressors, tractors etc etc We would have to go down the track of different coloured fuel and there would be greatly higher policing costs.

Not really.

Use of my petrol mower means I'm paying for a road I'm not using, why should a diesel mower get a free ride , as it were?

All of those non-road uses of diesel are a small minority compared to the on-road uses. You don't build a system around the minority.

Keep it simple, charge everybody at the pump.

tripper1000

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#1998727 18-Apr-2018 16:18

elpenguino:

All of those non-road uses of diesel are a small minority compared to the on-road uses. You don't build a system around the minority.

Keep it simple, charge everybody at the pump.

64% of diesel was used on road (2008). The minority is not insignificant.

Reference.

Coil

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#1998757 18-Apr-2018 16:37

tripper1000:

elpenguino:

All of those non-road uses of diesel are a small minority compared to the on-road uses. You don't build a system around the minority.

Keep it simple, charge everybody at the pump.

64% of diesel was used on road (2008). The minority is not insignificant.

Reference.

God I'd hate what it would cost for me to fill the game boat with 2.4 tonnes of diesel if there were road tax on it...

Lots of diesel is used off the road. A fact of that is most of the diesel used off the road is consumed at a much greater rate than a road going diesel engine could manage.
The diesel burn on a D10 dozer or 3000HP of boat at 32 kts burning 200L a side (400L total) per hour makes your eyes water.

BlueShift

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#1998770 18-Apr-2018 16:49

tripper1000:

elpenguino:

All of those non-road uses of diesel are a small minority compared to the on-road uses. You don't build a system around the minority.

Keep it simple, charge everybody at the pump.

64% of diesel was used on road (2008). The minority is not insignificant.

Reference.

Much of that diesel will be for uses that don't buy it from their local Z station. Shipping, rail, construction, etc. Having the diesel bowsers at the marina and the railyards dispensing diesel without road tax isn't that hard. Enforcing specific uses with large fines for diverting it to road vehicles isn't that tricky. Have a tax-refund system in place for those who fill up at the petrol station and can prove non-road use.

elpenguino

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#1998774 18-Apr-2018 16:54

Coil:

tripper1000:

elpenguino:

All of those non-road uses of diesel are a small minority compared to the on-road uses. You don't build a system around the minority.

Keep it simple, charge everybody at the pump.

64% of diesel was used on road (2008). The minority is not insignificant.

Reference.

God I'd hate what it would cost for me to fill the game boat with 2.4 tonnes of diesel if there were road tax on it...

Lots of diesel is used off the road.

Damn you, with your facts and all We shouldn't let them get in the way of this discussion though.

Non-road is no reason not to tax diesel still. Just change it from road tax to carbon tax - see, simples!

We certainly don't want a barmy system like in the UK with different coloured diesel's and cops shining torches into fuel tanks etc.

Awkward with taxing EVs since there's no fuel source - probably have to be loaded onto the registration, based on average mileage or some such.

If we are to migrate to a carbon free economy one day, we're still going to pay for the roads somehow. A model where you pay based on mileage is both fair and unfair.

A model where you pay based on ownership is simpler to administer - paying your annual fees in one hit will make a lot of us gulp though.

Coil

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#1998779 18-Apr-2018 17:04

elpenguino:

Coil:

tripper1000:

elpenguino:

All of those non-road uses of diesel are a small minority compared to the on-road uses. You don't build a system around the minority.

Keep it simple, charge everybody at the pump.

64% of diesel was used on road (2008). The minority is not insignificant.

Reference.

God I'd hate what it would cost for me to fill the game boat with 2.4 tonnes of diesel if there were road tax on it...

Lots of diesel is used off the road.

Damn you, with your facts and all We shouldn't let them get in the way of this discussion though.

Non-road is no reason not to tax diesel still. Just change it from road tax to carbon tax - see, simples!

We certainly don't want a barmy system like in the UK with different coloured diesel's and cops shining torches into fuel tanks etc.

Awkward with taxing EVs since there's no fuel source - probably have to be loaded onto the registration, based on average mileage or some such.

If we are to migrate to a carbon free economy one day, we're still going to pay for the roads somehow. A model where you pay based on mileage is both fair and unfair.

A model where you pay based on ownership is simpler to administer - paying your annual fees in one hit will make a lot of us gulp though.

I think RUC is the answer.

It just needs to be across the board. Petrol and Diesel. They need to do away with the L label and have different classes under L because a Ford Ranger towing a 3.5 tonne trailer does more damage than a 1.4 diesel Polo!

They also need to ditch registration if they make RUC across the board. Then your registration is based on how many KM's you use. RUC will have a rego component because we are getting super technical about who damages the roads the most.

Its a tough one, as someone who works for a company that sells RUC and an electronic hubodometer I can think of many ways with pros and cons but I think RUC is good.

Its just hard because a bulk carrier might want to carry 15 tonne of dirt but then 10 tonne of bark with the same volume on the way home but now they are over paying. Sure they can charge by the cube (Which most do) but you see where I am nagging.

davidcole

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#1998809 18-Apr-2018 18:05

Coil:

tripper1000:

elpenguino:

All of those non-road uses of diesel are a small minority compared to the on-road uses. You don't build a system around the minority.

Keep it simple, charge everybody at the pump.

64% of diesel was used on road (2008). The minority is not insignificant.

Reference.

God I'd hate what it would cost for me to fill the game boat with 2.4 tonnes of diesel if there were road tax on it...

Lots of diesel is used off the road. A fact of that is most of the diesel used off the road is consumed at a much greater rate than a road going diesel engine could manage.
The diesel burn on a D10 dozer or 3000HP of boat at 32 kts burning 200L a side (400L total) per hour makes your eyes water.

Try petrol or Av Gas powered race boats (Water ski racing). 2L a minute I used to go through....thankfully petrol at the time was 90c.

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