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Aredwood
3885 posts

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  #2134944 26-Nov-2018 23:18

I think that the brake system is a really poor design. Reason - if the driver has the seat too far back, or they have short legs. The driver may be physically unable to press the brake pedal all of the way to the floor. Or they may be unable to press it to the floor and press it hard at the same time.

This alone could explain some of the reports of complete brake failure.

In the mean time as a test. Try placing your foot underneath or to the side of the brake pedal. And see if you can press hard on the floor.


Since an ICE car with a failed brake booster system still has normal pedal travel. Even people who have previously experienced booster system failure could still get caught out.





MikeAqua
6059 posts

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  #2135701 28-Nov-2018 09:16
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afe66:

I've have a 2015 leaf for 3 years still on it's original 12v battery and had no issues.

 

In my experience the thing that kills 12v batteries fastest (assuming they are lead-acid) is exposure to temperatures below zero.  When I used store my boat outside in Marlborough, the batteries would last two years max.  Inside they last 5 years.





Mike


 
 
 
 


frednz
1434 posts

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  #2136481 29-Nov-2018 10:28
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https://www.noted.co.nz/tech/nissan-leaf-brakes-concern/

 

The above article by Peter Griffin is well worth reading on the alleged faulty Nissan brakes issue.

 

Nissan New Zealand chief executive John Manley told "Noted" that the condition only applies when Leafs are driven in frigid climatic conditions. He said :

 

“There's no way people are driving around in negative 20C here in New Zealand for prolonged periods of time."

 

But "Flip the Fleet" reported that:

 

"...it is aware of over 60 reported brake failure incidents in generation 1.2 and 1.3 Leafs manufactured between November 2012 and February 2016: 46 in USA, ten in the UK and Ireland, and five in New Zealand, including one where a Leaf owner had to reportedly veer off the road to avoid running into the back of a truck."

 

So perhaps sub-zero conditions aren't necessary to cause this brake software failure?

 

The article also reported that:

 

"At least two ‘firmware’ upgrades, ‘B’ and ‘C’, have been issued overseas that upgrade the original software responsible for the brake failure issue. So why doesn’t Nissan just make the upgrades available to Nissan dealers to install in affected Leafs here?

 

“If you are putting it into a car that doesn't have that specific issue you might be creating a problem,” an adamant Manley maintains.

 

“You may fry your electronic control unit. People are grabbing hold of software amendments and putting it in cars they aren't meant for or needed for. It doesn't make sense.”

 

So you should certainly avoid "frying your electronic control unit"!

 

Overseas, there have been voluntarily recalls which are referred to in the article as follows:

 

"But what about the overseas voluntary recalls? Surely, to be absolutely safe, the same is justified here?

 

“When you are selling cars into North America which is colossally litigious, you don't risk anything,” explains Manley.

 

“There's no way Nissan would not do something if they thought it was necessary.”

 

Overall, the article is well worth reading and it also discusses the effectiveness of the Consumer Guarantees Act for car buyers and dealers alike. This issue is very relevant because it's estimated that 2,400 Leafs in New Zealand may be affected. Even if the risk of the failure occurring is low, even one crash as a result of this issue is too many.

 

 


MikeAqua
6059 posts

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  #2136515 29-Nov-2018 11:17
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Brake failure is taking "Flip the Fleet" a little too literally.





Mike


tripper1000
1249 posts

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  #2136690 29-Nov-2018 16:00
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I thought Flip the Fleet was all about encouraging Electric Transport. They seem to be trying to scare people away from the most affordable EV.


DJK01

29 posts

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  #2136697 29-Nov-2018 16:24
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I think they're to be commended for being frank and forthright. Read the Q&As  "I thought Flip The Fleethad the goal of accelerating EV uptake  Flip The Fleetis first-and-foremost a science project – meaning that the results of our work are not always positive, and publishing negative results takes us a few steps back with our own mission. We often receive testimonials related to the downside of EVs, and we publish these, unedited, nonetheless. At the start of this year, the data we collected resulted in a finding of accelerated reported battery capacity loss in the 30 kWh variant of the Nissan Leaf, which has subsequently been remedied by Nissan firstly overseasand then in New Zealand, is one example of a negative discovery.

 

"We understand and acknowledge that our findings don’t always please all the stakeholders, including vehicle manufacturers, importers, dealers, drivers and various other organisations. But being a citizen science project, it is our moral obligation to publish the important findings (especially if it’s related to safety!), warts and all, despite the negative impact these actions may have on ourselves, businesses, regulators and EV owners alike. The findings presented in this blog surrounding the reported failures of the e-ACT Electrically-driven Intelligent Brake Control Unit, perhaps, fall into the ‘negative results’ bucket."


frednz
1434 posts

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  #2136822 29-Nov-2018 20:16
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tripper1000:

 

I thought Flip the Fleet was all about encouraging Electric Transport. They seem to be trying to scare people away from the most affordable EV.

 

 

I doubt whether affected Leaf owners are too worried about this as the brake failure rate is very low. But if an owner is worried, there doesn't seem to be much they can do about it. There's no official Nissan firmware patch yet, and Nissan is strongly advising owners against installing third party patches, so how can an owner deal with this situation?

 

I think this issue might cause buyers to wait before purchasing one of the affected Leafs, and I agree this is a pity because Leafs are the most affordable of the EVs on sale here. But I'm impressed that Flip the Fleet is treating the situation very seriously even though this might slow sales of some Leafs until this issue is resolved by Nissan.

 

I suppose you have to ask yourself whether you would buy one of the affected Leafs now that you know that there is a potential issue with the brakes, even if the failure rate is likely to be very low.

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


DJK01

29 posts

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  #2136823 29-Nov-2018 20:22
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The failure rate may be very low, but it could kill or injure you or someone else. I think it's a shame, too, but not worth the risk IMO. Nissan seems to be minimizing the problem rather than acknowledging and fixing it. 


gzt

gzt
11677 posts

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  #2136864 29-Nov-2018 21:20
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The patch C is only known in a later manufactured brake unit is it not? Then it is not known if earlier units are
compatible? Etc etc?

Linuxluver
5615 posts

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  #2136900 29-Nov-2018 22:40
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I've never experienced the issue in the 83,800km I've driven my LEAF in the last 2.5 years.

I'm at greater risk from blowing out a tyre, I'd think.





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frednz
1434 posts

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  #2136996 30-Nov-2018 08:28
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Linuxluver:

 

I've never experienced the issue in the 83,800km I've driven my LEAF in the last 2.5 years.

I'm at greater risk from blowing out a tyre, I'd think.

 

 

But can you be sure of that? I'd like to know why a computer program works most of the time but can then fail without warning - why is this?

 

Here's another article about this issue:

 

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/376884/nzta-to-test-nissan-electric-cars-after-suspected-brake-failure

 

It mentions this:

 

"There have been more than 50 reports of brake failures in the popular electric car in the United States and the UK.

 

Henrik Moller, of the Kiwi electric car advocacy website Flip the Fleet, said at least five cars had brake issues here, including his own.

 

"I was going very slow, I'd just pulled out and was in a lovely wide road with no one else around.

 

"But I appeared to have almost complete brake failure, maybe a bit of grab at the bottom of the pedal.

 

"It's a bit hard to remember all of the details when you're in a bit of a fright situation."

 

...

 

Mr Moller said Nissan needed to investigate the issue further, because brake issues in New Zealand sounded like the same ones happening abroad.

 

"If Nissan are suggesting it's just something to do with -20 degrees, then they're in complete denial.

 

So are affected Leaf owners in NZ "in complete denial" if they ignore this issue?

 

 

 

 


Dulouz
705 posts

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  #2137006 30-Nov-2018 08:53
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While I've never experienced the 'failure' - I do find the brakes act a bit funny in frequent stop and start scenarios e.g. inching forward in stalled traffic. The amount of pressure required to activate the brakes seems to vary requiring me to push further down on the pedal than usual.





Amanon

MikeAqua
6059 posts

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  #2137140 30-Nov-2018 12:17
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tripper1000:

 

I thought Flip the Fleet was all about encouraging Electric Transport. They seem to be trying to scare people away from the most affordable EV.

 

 

Good on them for being objective and balanced.  I think it's good when enthusiasts for a particular technology are also critics of it.

 

It's intellectually honest and provides feedback that manufacturers/developers should value and be able to act on.

 

 





Mike


jonathan18
4822 posts

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  #2137154 30-Nov-2018 12:36
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Flip the Fleet describes itself as a " citizen science coalition of families and businesses that drive electric vehicles(EVs) in New Zealand". One of the main guys behind it (Henrik Moller) is a former ecology professor at Otago, so a scientific approach would come with that background.


tripper1000
1249 posts

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  #2139040 4-Dec-2018 10:04
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I'm always a bit wary of statistics like this coming out of the USA. The truth can get lost in all the me-too's jumping on a potential class-action lawsuit. 


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