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  Reply # 2040758 19-Jun-2018 20:52
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Aredwood:
matisyahu:

 

Davy: Auckland will have a population of 2 million in about ten years. It's not economic to import a fleet of cars big enough to accommodate that number along with all the fuel to run them nor to allocate enough land to accommodate them.

Public transport has to do the bulk of the job, and needs to be usable like in other modern cities of this size.

 

As noted on a Reddit post I made, an ideal situation would be to cap vehicle registrations at 1 million (reducing it by 100,000 every 5 years until it hits 500,000 vehicles) and with putting registrations on a 5 year rotation and auction off the limited number of registrations then use that money to build public transpiration and drive down the cost until economies of scale kick in.



The number of cars someone owns has nothing to do with how much they drive. For example, I own 2 cars. But I can only drive 1 car at a time. So if I got rid of 1 of those cars, there will still be exactly the same amount of traffic congestion. As when my cars are not being driven, they are stored on private land.

Such a policy will also delay the uptake of electric cars. As it will be difficult to own both an EV and an ICE car.

 

MikeAqua:
matisyahu:

 

As noted on a Reddit post I made, an ideal situation would be to cap vehicle registrations at 1 million (reducing it by 100,000 every 5 years until it hits 500,000 vehicles) and with putting registrations on a 5 year rotation and auction off the limited number of registrations then use that money to build public transpiration and drive down the cost until economies of scale kick in.

 

Such a policy would motivate people to register cars at different addresses - out of town relatives etc. 

 

Both of you have missed the point entirely - if you cap the number of registered cars on the road overall then you drive up the cost of registration through the auctioning process combined with a constricted supply. If you want to have multiple registrations then by all means do so but it'll probably end up costing you $10,000 per car per year. Regarding poor people - that is what the purpose of an auctioning process, to bring in the revenue to expand public transport and drive down the cost so it is a net benefit for low income people, reduced spending on roads and a benefit for the environment - it is a win/win for all concerned.





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  Reply # 2040765 19-Jun-2018 21:19
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It's not a win for anybody who needs a car so they can take kids to sports all over town on weekends, go on holiday, spend a day out in the weekend. 

 

Public transport zealots dreaming about effectively banning cars by taxing them out of the reach of the proletariat don't seem to understand that having access to a car is ingrained in our quality of life. If I feel like blipping out to Piha for a surf with the family am I expected to take a bus there? What about getting Ben and Lucy to hockey at different venues on Saturdays? What if I need to take a trailer load of garden waste to the tip? Will everyone have to drag their suermarket shopping bags through the rain to a bus station?

 

This is what "dystopia" means.

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2040778 19-Jun-2018 21:58
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kryptonjohn:

 

Went out for dinner in the Britomart area last might at Ortolana - I will post about that elsewhere...

 

As we're quite close to Orakei train station I figured my wife and I would catch the train in to avoid parking and allow having a few wines. I have a HOP card so easy for me, but wife doesn't so needs a paper ticket. The machine doesn't seem to offer round trip tickets, so have to purchase a ticket each time. Fail #1. The price of a ticket for the 7 minute ride into Britomart from Orakei? $5.50. Are you kidding me? Cheaper to just catch an Uber. Also more convenient, and drier. Fail #2.

 

On the way in and on the way home, the trains are only 2/hour. Had a near 30 minute wait on the way home. Fail #3.

 

Using the train was seriously terrible. Over-priced. No security to be seen. Long wait. And this is already being subsidised by rate payers? Never again.

 

 

 

 

One of the reasons there's so much traffic in Auckland, cheaper to just use your car.




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  Reply # 2040787 19-Jun-2018 22:34
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The problem would resolve itself if kids got themselves to school either by walking, cycling or bus instead of being driven to that school gate.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/104705946/school-gate-chaos-in-wellington-forces-council-to-develop-plan-to-get-kids-out-of-cars
Every school holiday the traffic congestion in Auckland is vastly reduced. Kids are generally in a school zone so close. Workers don't always have the opportunity to live near their work though.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2040828 20-Jun-2018 06:35
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matisyahu:

 

Both of you have missed the point entirely - if you cap the number of registered cars on the road overall then you drive up the cost of registration through the auctioning process combined with a constricted supply. If you want to have multiple registrations then by all means do so but it'll probably end up costing you $10,000 per car per year. Regarding poor people - that is what the purpose of an auctioning process, to bring in the revenue to expand public transport and drive down the cost so it is a net benefit for low income people, reduced spending on roads and a benefit for the environment - it is a win/win for all concerned.

 

 

I don't think we missed the point, we just think it's a bad idea. You'll never get a PT system that matches the mobility options of an individual vehicle, and you're OK with some people having it; you just want to price it out of most people's reach. It's hard to see how that loss of mobility wouldn't represent a net loss for those who were not well-off enough to buy a registration. Maybe in somewhere with the density of Hong Kong, but we don't have that and we'd sacrifice serious local amenity (e.g. parks etc) to get it. 

 

And as others have pointed out, there is some serious fuzz around the relationship between number of registrations and number of cars on the road. I have three cars but I only drove one to work this morning. I'm an outlier but you get the idea. 


Banana?
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  Reply # 2040856 20-Jun-2018 08:45
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I disagree with taxing people out of car ownership. As mentioned, there are times and places a car is needed.

 

I do think that where a viable public transport option is available, road charges should be in place to discourage people using their car for a trip that they could do on PT. Sure, use the car to take the kids to sports or do the big shop (though apparently in Auckland, most people shop small and frequent, so a car really isn't needed for that).

 

The hurdle is how to implement it without it costing more than the benefits it provides (not just in tolls/charges collected, but environmental/congestion benefits too).


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 2040872 20-Jun-2018 09:11
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GV27:

Davy:


The problem with light rail is not so much where it goes, but where it doesn't go. The obvious gaps in the rail network are to the North and to the East, but light rail is being sent to the South and to the West.

That is not explained and is the reason for a lot of the opposition to it.


 


The Shore already has a separate busway. The East is getting one. There's your answer. 


Honestly the Shore had a busway for a decade before anyone else and but it doesn't stop them whinging about not having rail/more ferries/light rail etc.


And you might want to check how close the rail out West gets to places like Westgate and Hobsonville where those massive subdivisions are going in (hint: it doesn't get close at all).



Not saying light rail shouldn't go to Westgate, but I suggest you look into questions like; does the busway go to the CBD, and how many North Shore centres have a rail or busway station? Get hold of a map of Auckland, mark all the busway and rail stations, and you will see straight away what the problem is.

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2040883 20-Jun-2018 09:28
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Davy:
GV27:

 

Davy:

 

The problem with light rail is not so much where it goes, but where it doesn't go. The obvious gaps in the rail network are to the North and to the East, but light rail is being sent to the South and to the West.

That is not explained and is the reason for a lot of the opposition to it.

 

The Shore already has a separate busway. The East is getting one. There's your answer. 

 

 

 

Honestly the Shore had a busway for a decade before anyone else and but it doesn't stop them whinging about not having rail/more ferries/light rail etc.

 

 

 

And you might want to check how close the rail out West gets to places like Westgate and Hobsonville where those massive subdivisions are going in (hint: it doesn't get close at all).

 



Not saying light rail shouldn't go to Westgate, but I suggest you look into questions like; does the busway go to the CBD, and how many North Shore centres have a rail or busway station? Get hold of a map of Auckland, mark all the busway and rail stations, and you will see straight away what the problem is.

 

If I do that today, it's going to show one busway on the Northshore and literally nowhere else in Auckland. 


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  Reply # 2040960 20-Jun-2018 11:23
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matisyahu:

 

Both of you have missed the point entirely

 

 

I think you missed my point. 

 

If you cap vehicle registrations within a city, but not in the rest of the country, then people will find ways to dodge that system, for example by registering their vehicle to out of zone addresses (relatives, bach etc).

 

For example assume someone has an apartment in Auckland for the working week and a house in Cambridge.  If they wanted to have a car in Auckland, then they would simply register it to the Cambridge address. 

 

In another example some enterprising fellow could set up a hire business in Hamilton and rent cars for Aucklanders for three to five years at a time.  All registered to a Hamilton address.  And those are just the ideas that occurred to me.

 

I think your idea would work somewhere like Singapore. But Auckland isn't a city-state-island.





Mike

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  Reply # 2041312 20-Jun-2018 19:43
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matisyahu:

 

Both of you have missed the point entirely - if you cap the number of registered cars on the road overall then you drive up the cost of registration through the auctioning process combined with a constricted supply. If you want to have multiple registrations then by all means do so but it'll probably end up costing you $10,000 per car per year. Regarding poor people - that is what the purpose of an auctioning process, to bring in the revenue to expand public transport and drive down the cost so it is a net benefit for low income people, reduced spending on roads and a benefit for the environment - it is a win/win for all concerned.

 

 

Restricting car ownership in the way that you describe could actually increase traffic congestion and vehicle emissions. Imagine I decide that owning a car is too expensive for me, And I have 2 other friends in the same situation. So we split the car ownership costs 1/3 each. Because we all live in different houses, we then need to make extra trips just to drop off and collect the car from each-overs houses. Extra traffic congestion, as well as the time costs.

 

And poor people tend to live in areas that are further away from shops, employment, education etc. And are more likely to be doing shift work, trades work. That is not on a set schedule / odd hours / have to visit a large number of different locations etc. So are less likely to be able to use public transport.

 

 

 

And for my job as a plumber / gasfitter, where I have to drive around with a van load of tools and materials. There is no way that I can use public transport. So any increased transport costs will just get passed onto my customers. Which in turn will mean that houses will cost more to build.






pdh

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  Reply # 2041538 21-Jun-2018 10:00
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Come on gals & guys – this is supposed to be Geekzone…

 

How can we have 4 pages of discussion about Auckland’s transport – and ignore modern tech ?

 

The OP considers that a modern – tech-enabled- solution like Uber can’t be beaten by 19th century tech (Railways).  Well, duh !

 

Many of the responses would like to “increase the daily beatings” to force increasing numbers of people out of their already insanely time-consumptive and expensive private vehicle commutes. Let’s demolish parking buildings, let’s charge CBD fees, let’s ration car ownership to the elite.

 

Let’s instead maybe ask why our public transport is such a massive fail ?

 

(a) excruciatingly slow planning & approval – much less implementation

 

(b) based on inflexible – set in concrete for 50 years – modes of transport

 

(c) built with as many single-point-of-failure nodes as possible (mechanical & labour).

 

(d) operated by statistical guesses on traffic & demand, instead of live demand data

 

I’m guessing that 95% of us have some experience with networks… is that how you’d do it ?

 

Who would sink money (in 2018) into PT structure that didn’t use smart, distributed, driverless electric vehicles ? Door-to-door ? Door-to-intermediary transit-hub-to-door ?

 

Flexible, almost on-demand… Better for commuting than my weekend car !

 

Maybe as a community all we can do is take a leaf out of our undoubted ability to pick effective leaders in the sports business ? Give Grant Dalton a budget of a billion dollars, tell him to get a second harbour crossing opened in 4 years and stand aside.

 

Watch Chicago get a 30 km tunnel built in 3 years for a billion dollars.                 
Consider historical abilities (all without MS Planner !)
1931  380m Empire State Building – 13.5 months from bare ground to open day.
1994  328m Auckland Sky Tower – 33 months  (with not much office space)
1942  2700 km Alaskan Highway – 8 months
1963  1400 m Montreal’s L-HL 6-lane Tunnel  - 30 months - 75 M$C (2018 0.8 B$NZ)
2011  2400 m Auckland Waterview 6-lane Tunnel – 93 months  - 2 B$NZ


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Wannabe Geek
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  Reply # 2041571 21-Jun-2018 10:39
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Light rail is not solution for Auckland, it works in European cities mostly because of high density population. Auckland is a huge village with most of people living in houses and huge distances when traveling anywhere. Light rail is just a bus on rails with frequent stops.

 

 

 

The reasonable solution for Auckland is to build a backbone PT infrastructure with huge P+R carparks. People will only have to go short distance in cars to the PT hub, then park and commute to the city. This could be easily funded by tolling roads in peak hours. The rest of the people who don't work in CBD or other high density places will have free roads to use.

 

 

 

Another thing is people don't want to get out of the comfort of their cars and are willing to pay huge parking fees and spend ridiculous time in congestion because of it. I know couple of people and still don't understand why somebody would be willing to pay $200 a month more and spend up to 20 hours more on roads than use train or bus.


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  Reply # 2041572 21-Jun-2018 10:44
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pdh:

 

How can we have 4 pages of discussion about Auckland’s transport – and ignore modern tech ?

 

 

Teleportation is the answer ...

 

Seriously though the solution is well developed worldwide enough and requires minimal new tech - extensive network of modern light and heavy rail powered by electricity.  Connected to an extensive high frequency bus network. Park and ride and retail at major hubs, higher density housing around hubs.  High quality and safe bike lanes feeding into hubs.

 

Collectively providing joined up infrastructure and services that commuters would be mad not to use.  Then make it very expensive for people to drive into the CBD - with exemptions for people who have particular needs - mobility, maternity etc etc.

 

The only limitations are money and physical space (which is resolvable with money).





Mike



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  Reply # 2041573 21-Jun-2018 10:48
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peetter:

 

Light rail is just a bus on rails.

 

 

Couldn't put it better myself. And being on rails it can't drive around a problem like a bus can. And it causes huge cost and disruption putting those rails in. And once they're in you can't change the route without getting disruption and cost again. 

 

I don't understand why people would want to spend billions building this 18th century technology.

 

 

 

 




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  Reply # 2041575 21-Jun-2018 10:50
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MikeAqua:

 

pdh:

 

How can we have 4 pages of discussion about Auckland’s transport – and ignore modern tech ?

 

 

...

 

... Then make it very expensive for people to drive into the CBD ...

 

...

 

 

In Auckland the CBD is only a fraction of the problem. Getting from anywhere to anywhere is a problem e.g. Penrose to Manukau etc

 

 


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