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wellygary
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  #2048113 3-Jul-2018 10:20
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MikeB4:

 

Putting on a toll will at least pick up the drivers that have not paid towards the road, that is  EV drivers but they will still be paying hundreds of dollars less than other users and that is unfair taxation. Maybe the EV should be charged twice or three times the normal toll. 

 

Hey, how about we keep this on T-Gully, there is a whole EV thread for debates about EVs being RUC exempt...


MikeB4
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  #2048138 3-Jul-2018 10:38
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wellygary:

 

MikeB4:

 

Putting on a toll will at least pick up the drivers that have not paid towards the road, that is  EV drivers but they will still be paying hundreds of dollars less than other users and that is unfair taxation. Maybe the EV should be charged twice or three times the normal toll. 

 

Hey, how about we keep this on T-Gully, there is a whole EV thread for debates about EVs being RUC exempt...

 

 

 

 

I am talking about Transmission Gully and paying for it. What I am saying is the burden is and will be unfairly levied and that is simply unjust.


 
 
 
 


MikeAqua
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  #2048172 3-Jul-2018 11:19
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MikeB4:

 

What I am saying is for many families and individuals their income is used to the max week to week, they simply cannot afford additional costs. 

 

 

I get that and I'm explaining my view poorly.  Right now those families are paying the cost of congestion in their weekly fuel use and vehicle wear.  With a toll road they will be using less in fuel because the traffic will be flowing, rather than stop-start. 

 

The toll on the N gateway (as an e.g.) equates roughly to the purchase of 1L of fuel.

 

 





Mike


MikeB4
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  #2048176 3-Jul-2018 11:25
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MikeAqua:

 

MikeB4:

 

What I am saying is for many families and individuals their income is used to the max week to week, they simply cannot afford additional costs. 

 

 

I get that and I'm explaining my view poorly.  Right now those families are paying the cost of congestion in their weekly fuel use and vehicle wear.  With a toll road they will be using less in fuel because the traffic will be flowing, rather than stop-start. 

 

The toll on the N gateway (as an e.g.) equates roughly to the purchase of 1L of fuel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I get that and if all was right you would be correct. I am skeptical that Transmission Gully will cure/alleviate  the commuter issues especially in the morning as the choke points starting at the Gorge to the city and beyond will still be there. The evening commute will be easier as any choke point will be beyond the big population centres. I very much doubt the highly recommended Granada to Hutt Valley link will go ahead under the current regime.


tdgeek
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  #2048188 3-Jul-2018 11:56
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MikeB4:
MikeAqua:

 

mattwnz:

 

 

 

As I said before, tolling essential SH1 roads  is going to become a class thing, where the rich will drive on the nice new safe faster route, while the poor will be using the old poormans road.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Using the N gateway as an example it's $2.30, which is $23 per week for 5 return trips.

 

 

 

If you can WOF, licence and run an older car, you can afford toll roads.

 



For you maybe but for a large number of families that is the school lunch fund or the winter heating or the doctors visits.

 

Mike, your point is I think, all of us need to pay for it, not just the users by way of tolls, as it affects lower income people. You suggested GST goes to 17% to pay for it. If that happened, that's an extra cost still for those, and for those that dont use the road. Freight on the road will be paid by all of us via the price of the goods, so user pays. But while you feel its unfair, its also unfair to tax the other poor who do not use the road.  


MikeB4
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  #2048196 3-Jul-2018 12:06
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@tdgeek what I am saying is if RUCs and fuel tax are not enough to pay for the infrastructure then maybe it's time for a complete review of the funding and not just add unfairly distributed new taxes disguised as tolls. I suggest maybe removing fuel taxes, tools and other levies with an addition to GST and this can fund fairly  all of the transport infrastructure. Right now the burden of funding is resting dis proportionally on a sector of our society. 


dejadeadnz
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  #2048242 3-Jul-2018 13:03
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MikeB4:

 

@tdgeek what I am saying is if RUCs and fuel tax are not enough to pay for the infrastructure then maybe it's time for a complete review of the funding and not just add unfairly distributed new taxes disguised as tolls. I suggest maybe removing fuel taxes, tools and other levies with an addition to GST and this can fund fairly  all of the transport infrastructure. Right now the burden of funding is resting dis proportionally on a sector of our society. 

 

 

I am not sure where you got the idea GST is a less regressive tax than tolls. Many mainstream economists consider GST to be highly regressive, for reasons that any thinking person should be able to discern. I say this again: on complicated and controversial subject matters, it's simply not appropriate to assert a highly controversial position as though it is a statement of fact without offering much in evidence.


 
 
 
 


tdgeek
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  #2048259 3-Jul-2018 13:16
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dejadeadnz:

 

MikeB4:

 

@tdgeek what I am saying is if RUCs and fuel tax are not enough to pay for the infrastructure then maybe it's time for a complete review of the funding and not just add unfairly distributed new taxes disguised as tolls. I suggest maybe removing fuel taxes, tools and other levies with an addition to GST and this can fund fairly  all of the transport infrastructure. Right now the burden of funding is resting dis proportionally on a sector of our society. 

 

 

I am not sure where you got the idea GST is a less regressive tax than tolls. Many mainstream economists consider GST to be highly regressive, for reasons that any thinking person should be able to discern. I say this again: on complicated and controversial subject matters, it's simply not appropriate to assert a highly controversial position as though it is a statement of fact without offering much in evidence.

 

 

I agree. The only way to make tax fairer is to use Income Tax as the driver. Its not just GST, all costs are regressive. A loaf of bread even if you whipped off GST is $4 for a person on a 7 figure salary, and $4 for one on $35k. I only see Income tax as a solution. Even that's a slippery slope, you start giving some people a PAYE bill and others a tax credit. If a line in the sand was made as to a standard minimum wage, tax, and tax credit to look after the low wage employees, then you can adjust that annually to avoid tax creep. Then don't tamper with it


MikeB4
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  #2048260 3-Jul-2018 13:17
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@dejadeadnz  I respectfully contend that my post like your one was a statement of opinion not a statement of fact. One exception my post did not contain a thinly veiled jab. After all I did say "I suggest"  in my post which would indicate that I was postulating an idea not stating a fact.


MikeAqua
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  #2048261 3-Jul-2018 13:19
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I don't mind a few regressive taxes.  As a general rule the lower your income is, the more you cost the govt (health, police, justice, MSD etc).





Mike


Wiggum
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  #2048265 3-Jul-2018 13:23
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MikeAqua:

 

I don't mind a few regressive taxes.  As a general rule the lower your income is, the more you cost the govt (health, police, justice, MSD etc).

 

 

And the higher the taxes, the lower your income is.


MikeAqua
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  #2048299 3-Jul-2018 13:30
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Wiggum:

 

And the higher the taxes, the lower your income is.

 

 

For income tax, in relation to net income - yes.  But we already have a progressive income tax system.

 

Other taxes do not affect your net income.  They generally kick in when you spend that income e.g. GST, which is regressive.





Mike


mattwnz
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  #2048318 3-Jul-2018 14:02
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trig42:

 

 

 

I don't know if tolling the TG motorway makes sense (I don't live on the Kapiti coast) but if there is a suitable free route, and the tolled route is faster and easier, then go ahead - $3 is cheap for a stretch of road like that is going to be. If I did live there and HAD to drive my single occupant vehicle into Wellington every day I'd pay the $3 if it made my life easier and saved me time.

 

 

I think it is about safety, as the current road is narrow and windy and killed a lot of people, which I recall was one of the main drivers for TG. I can see them reducing the speed on it down to 50 after TG opens for safety, so it will likely be even slower.  So I don't think it can really be considered a good alternative route up to 21st century  standards.

 

Maybe $3 doesn't seem much to some, but it is yet another addon cost. These little addon costs all add up to larger amounts. Over a week that is $30 out of the weekly budget. As as with everything these costs do go up over time. 

 

Maybe they could make it free if a car carries more than 1 person? I am guessing the tech exists to do this now.


MikeAqua
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  #2049118 4-Jul-2018 16:34
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The purpose of the tolling is to encourage people to continue to use public transport. 

 

It's not a funding issue.  The road was paid for by private finance and the govt is paying it back at $125m per year.  Of course revenue from a toll would partially offset hat.  But it would be nice to see any toll go into regional public transport.





Mike


mattwnz
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  #2049130 4-Jul-2018 16:38
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MikeAqua:

 

The purpose of the tolling is to encourage people to continue to use public transport. 

 

It's not a funding issue.  The road was paid for by private finance and the govt is paying it back at $125m per year.  Of course revenue from a toll would partially offset hat.  But it would be nice to see any toll go into regional public transport.

 

 

 

 

Except public transport isn't exactly great in this area, and not suitable if you are transporting things. Trains are slow and not all that frequent, and stations tend to be unpleasant places to wait. Wellington rail station is also not very central, which I believe is something they are working on with lightrail/trams. I suspect buses will struggle up TG due to the gradient.

 

I don;t seem a problem with cars, especially when many will be EVs in the next decade.

 

You don't build a billion dollar road with taxpayer dollars, and then not want those same taxpayers to use it.


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