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  Reply # 2084645 6-Sep-2018 01:09
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gehenna:
spoonboy:

 

This whole story of Snapper is just one big mistake. 

 

There is absolutely no need in some special "transport" card. 

 

Just use regular visa paywave or similar technology from mastercard and stop wasting millions on Snapper. Pretty much any new CC issued in NZ has it. The money could be better spend on drivers and vehicles. 

 

That tech didn't exist when Snapper came out. At the time Snapper was well ahead of the game, and things could have been a lot different if it had been successful in its expansion to Auckland. Personally I don't really want to be using my actual bank card as contactless payments for public transport, it's highly susceptible to theft in that use case.  At least with Snapper you're only topping up a small amount onto the card at a time (generally).  Certainly Apple Pay and the like are good candidates though.  

 

First, the paywave card has limits on a single purchase of 80$ or something like this. 

 

Second, the visa provides special warranty on contactless payments, so, that you could easily return the money. 

 

I use it everywhere and feel much more secure than with the Snapper tag on/tag off  process where you never know if the transaction was actually done correctly and you'll not be penalised on your next trip. 

 

Now, regarding how good the snapper is. Just look at the success of FinTech startups all around.  Snapper got a fantastic starting position effectively becoming an exclusive payment solution for the metropolitan transport. And what has been done in 10 years? Almost nothing visible.  The only improvement I can see is that you can top up it from your mobile now. What happened to all the promises that Snapper will open their card to other vendors? Where is the SDK? Where are the impressive new features? It is still pretty much just a bus ticket card. Why would I use it in a cafe if I can pay by CC,  the money will be taken only 30 days later and I get 1% rebate or air points?  

 

Snapper team was just enjoying their almost monopoly position on the market for 10 years doing almost nothing . And at the same time, there were attempts to cut the bus drivers salaries and the ticket prices doubled. 


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  Reply # 2084685 6-Sep-2018 07:57
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I used Snapper on visit to Wellington last year & not a big fan of tagging off.  The card readers at the rear door of some buses did not seem to work well & I got pinged a penalty fare or two. Not a big issue for a visitor but would be for a regular user. I think we can guess which card readers would get priority to be maintained well - the ones at the front door of the buses.


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  Reply # 2084698 6-Sep-2018 08:29
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amiga500:

 

I used Snapper on visit to Wellington last year & not a big fan of tagging off.  The card readers at the rear door of some buses did not seem to work well & I got pinged a penalty fare or two. Not a big issue for a visitor but would be for a regular user. I think we can guess which card readers would get priority to be maintained well - the ones at the front door of the buses.

 

 

It doesn't happen that often, but when it does I keep a record of it and, if possible, some sort of evidence of where and when I disembarked. If I get hit with penalty fares often enough then I'll be sending all that evidence to them along with an invoice to reimburse the penalties.


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  Reply # 2084716 6-Sep-2018 09:35
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amiga500:

 

I used Snapper on visit to Wellington last year & not a big fan of tagging off.  The card readers at the rear door of some buses did not seem to work well & I got pinged a penalty fare or two. Not a big issue for a visitor but would be for a regular user. I think we can guess which card readers would get priority to be maintained well - the ones at the front door of the buses.

 

 

All the snapper readers ( exc the airport bus) were replaced in the middle of this year as part of a new bus contract.... they do appear to read much better now ...

 

Snapper has also been extended to the Wairarapa and Kapiti bus services, as the Inteim ticketing solution, until the Tokenised "NEXT" solution is introduced 


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  Reply # 2084723 6-Sep-2018 09:51
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spoonboy:

 

First, the paywave card has limits on a single purchase of 80$ or something like this. 

 

Second, the visa provides special warranty on contactless payments, so, that you could easily return the money. 

 

 

I'm not referring to the risk of the card being used by a thief.  I'm referring to the inconvenience of the card being stolen in the first place.  At least if a Snapper gets stolen it's not your main way of paying for most things, and seemingly banks still can't turn around a replacement card in a reasonable timeframe.  


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  Reply # 2084724 6-Sep-2018 09:52
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spoonboy:

 

Snapper team was just enjoying their almost monopoly position on the market for 10 years doing almost nothing . And at the same time, there were attempts to cut the bus drivers salaries and the ticket prices doubled. 

 

 

What does any of this have to do with Snapper? Snapper are a 3rd party ticketing provider firstly for NZ Bus and now for GWRC.

 

Bus driver salaries are determined by the bus route operator (NZ Bus or Tranzit group) and fares are set by GWRC and NZTA.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2084742 6-Sep-2018 10:08
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I'm a big fan of Snapper, but I would be happy to support a switch to Paywave.  It would be even easier.

 

I've never had an issue with being unable to tag off.  If the machine doesn't beep, I pass the card again.  I have forgotten, once.





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  Reply # 2084754 6-Sep-2018 10:21
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spoonboy:

 

 

 

I start with the second one. The 3% you're talking about is probably applicable to small shops, but not to big customers like supermarkets that are getting the wholesale rates. The negotiated price could be much cheaper than you think. And definitely, cheaper than costs of maintaining a team of snapper guys at the top location in Wellington CBD.  

 

Now, regarding the technology. Of course, it is not just the card, but the whole backend, hardware and software needs to be changed. But there is absolutely nothing that fundamentally prevents from using CC in metropolitan transport. In fact, it is completely opposite:

 

The Visa Global Transit Solutions team has implemented a dozen transit solutions to-date in Europe and currently has new projects underway in Asia, North America and Europe – all focused on customer propositions that reduce the hassle of using public transport. 

 

Actually, VISA is doing NFC based transport projects for more than 10 years now and the technology was available at the time when Snapper was introduced in NZ. Non standard, proprietary, not compatible with any other system, it has been chosen with no visible reasons. It is not even compatible with other systems in NZ. 

 

Using CC would bring tons of benefits both for the customers and the bus companies. May be you could spend your 1K words on arguing with this statement, rather than saying that it is not possible? If you don't know HOW to do something, it does not mean that it is impossible. Frequently, it could be quite possible and not that complex. You just need to find right people to do the job ;-). 

 

 

You're still ignoring how contactless payments work.

 

You can't "replace" Snapper by simply moving to credit cards. A stored value card is actually requires a very simple back end system. Moving to tokenisation actually makes the back end systems far more complex. A back end system still needs to exist for processing of all the payments and to perform clearing house functionality to get those funds to the operator(s) of the services. You seem to think it's as as simple as walking into a dairy and paying $2 that goes into the dairy owners account. It's not. 

 

When you swipe your credit card in London at an Oyster terminal it is not simply a standard transaction. Your credit card number is captured and a psuedo account created with your credit card number now simply being used as a token.

 

Visa themselves actually have very little experience in delivering transport solutions despite their great sounding press release (quote source - Visa themselves at CES while discussing this technology with Visa and NXP). The experts in this area are Cubic Systems who are public transport ticketing providers in some pretty big markets. They run Oyster in London and Ventra in Chicago which were two of the pioneering networks for the technology. 

 

Of course having contactless would bring benefits for customers. That's proven and nobody disagrees with that.

 

It however is not a once sized all solution for all customers which is exactly what is demonstrated in London. The vast majority of customers can't move away from Oyster simply because the many fares and passes is simply incompatible with the logic behind using a credit card which is best suited to casual, daily or weekly passes. Some fairly fundamental decisions may need to be made to fare structures and how zoning works which nare decisions that need to be made by NZTA as they ultimately control public transport ticketing in NZ.

 

Sydney has some significant challenges as well which is why credit cards will unlikely not replace Opal fully any time soon. Credit card use is great for casual use, but not so much for dealing with complex fares or passes. In places like Melbourne where they are moving to credit cards soon their zone structure makes things slightly easier, but dealing with say monthly or yearly passes brings challenges. 

 

There are many technical and business decisions to overcome with credit card use. Interchange is still one of the biggest issues, as is liability. Somebody needs to be liable for losses, and with debit cards becoming popular now those losses are a real world issue. With a credit card a hold can be placed against the card to both validate the card and ensure sufficient funds will be available for a daily or weekly pass. Debit cards bring challenges to that as a person can deplete their funds and the concept of a hold doesn't exist with a credit card.

 

 


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  Reply # 2084970 6-Sep-2018 12:10
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sbiddle:

 

You're still ignoring how contactless payments work.

 

You can't "replace" Snapper by simply moving to credit cards. A stored value card is actually requires a very simple back end system. Moving to tokenisation actually makes the back end systems far more complex. A back end system still needs to exist for processing of all the payments and to perform clearing house functionality to get those funds to the operator(s) of the services. You seem to think it's as as simple as walking into a dairy and paying $2 that goes into the dairy owners account. It's not. 

 

When you swipe your credit card in London ...

 

 

Yes, for sure, you'll need your backend. Its complexity will depend a lot on the business requirements (is it a single price ticket or you need zoning, timing etc).

 

But, my point is that it is achievable with payWave  or similar technology. Yes, you may need to generate a token. So, what's the issue, create the token then?

 

Basically, instead of solving technical challenges you propose to put this complexities on passengers.

 

As a customer I would like to have an ability to pay just with my CC without  a need of paying for and dealing with some "strange" card that you have to deposit money to in advance and that can only be used in one city in NZ. 

 

As a professional IT engineer I can see that all the technical obstacles could be solved using the existing technology (smart cards used in payWave and similar systems).

 

For example, my ANZ Visa card has more sophisticated version of the chip (JCOP3.1) than the snapper one does. 

 

Now, regarding the cases you've mentioned. They are not supported by the snapper. So, rather than considering some hypothetical complex cases in other countries, can you specify what exactly from the current snapper functionality cannot be re-created with payWave in your opinion?

 

As far as I can see, may be 90% of all transactions are very simple. It can be just a single charge on "tag on" and optional  rebate on "tag off". 

 

Now, regarding the monthly tickets. Ok, yes, you may need a token. But as an alternative, you may just add an extra app to your bank card. This is an example of how this was done in Riga:

 

https://www.rigassatiksme.lv/en/tickets-and-e-ticket/types-of-e-tickets/payment-card-with-e-ticket-of-the-bank-citadele/

 

Btw, Snapper is claiming that their system is used there. Looking at the web site, obviously, it is not true. It is a different solution with no any references to Snapper there. 


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  Reply # 2085006 6-Sep-2018 13:06
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spoonboy:

 

Now, regarding the monthly tickets. Ok, yes, you may need a token. But as an alternative, you may just add an extra app to your bank card. This is an example of how this was done in Riga:

 

https://www.rigassatiksme.lv/en/tickets-and-e-ticket/types-of-e-tickets/payment-card-with-e-ticket-of-the-bank-citadele/

 

Btw, Snapper is claiming that their system is used there. Looking at the web site, obviously, it is not true. It is a different solution with no any references to Snapper there. 

 

 

Snapper built a top up solution for them according to Google - https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/3294017/Content/Rigas%20Karte%20Desktop%20app%20case%20study-%20January%202018.pdf

 

 


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  Reply # 2085012 6-Sep-2018 13:23
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sbiddle:

 

spoonboy:

 

Now, regarding the monthly tickets. Ok, yes, you may need a token. But as an alternative, you may just add an extra app to your bank card. This is an example of how this was done in Riga:

 

https://www.rigassatiksme.lv/en/tickets-and-e-ticket/types-of-e-tickets/payment-card-with-e-ticket-of-the-bank-citadele/

 

Btw, Snapper is claiming that their system is used there. Looking at the web site, obviously, it is not true. It is a different solution with no any references to Snapper there. 

 

 

Snapper built a top up solution for them according to Google - https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/3294017/Content/Rigas%20Karte%20Desktop%20app%20case%20study-%20January%202018.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heh, Google in this case just a search engine that's pointing to the document copied from the snapper web site. Here is the original:

 

https://services.snapper.co.nz/category/case-study/

 

There is nothing about on the Riga transport site yet. The tickets they are using now were available well before the Snapper press released in 2018. 

 

Actually, I think that they just used the "free" case try model Snapper is offering and this is it. 

 

Generally, the Baltic countries are moving toward the free public transport. Tallinn was the first case: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/oct/11/tallinn-experiment-estonia-public-transport-free-cities

 

Now, two cities in Latvia already adopted the free public transport model. (Sorry, this is the only article in English I've found, but the decision has been made and from the July 1st it is free).

 

Riga is likely the next in the line. 

 

IMHO, this is what NZ should be thinking about rather than looking at some dirty examples from London. May be London is not such a nice place as so many people are moving from there to NZ ;-).  


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  Reply # 2099837 2-Oct-2018 09:43
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wellygary:

 

Its appears its not the front end that is the Issue, its the Back end- the snapper readers the flyer has will be same as the others are installing as the cards aren't changing.....

 

Metlink are applying a bunch of discounts and free transfers between Metlink services, and I'm assuming its being done as "default"

 

I'm guessing that snapper/metlink have said to commercial services "if you want to join us, you will have to foot the costs of developing the system to allow discrimination between buses that get discounts and those that don't" and the Flyer have said "nah too expensive"

 

This was the response provided by a Wellingon Regional Councillor when asked about it

 

"Integrating non-Metlink providers into the Metlink Snapper system is made difficult by the fact that commercial operators have different fare structures than Metlink – i.e. what happens when you transfer from a Metlink Bus to an Airport Flyer in the offpeak – does the free fare transfer apply? Does the 25% off peak discount apply? At the moment the answer to those two questions is “No” because these are not services to which the NZTA and Regional Council transport subsidies apply. "

 

 

On a discussion going on, Snapper just posted this on Twitter:

 

 

In a previous reply they say the equipment has been in use for eight years and NZ Bus simply declined to upgrade the readers.





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  Reply # 2099870 2-Oct-2018 10:34
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freitasm:

 

NZ Bus simply declined to upgrade the readers.

 

 

They obviously got a good deal on EFTPOS terminals instead

 

" From November onwards the payment methods will be cash and eftpos (credit and debit cards)"

 

http://www.nzbus.co.nz/airportflyer/ticket

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2102554 6-Oct-2018 16:45
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sbiddle:

 

You're still ignoring how contactless payments work.

 

You can't "replace" Snapper by simply moving to credit cards. A stored value card is actually requires a very simple back end system. Moving to tokenisation actually makes the back end systems far more complex. A back end system still needs to exist for processing of all the payments and to perform clearing house functionality to get those funds to the operator(s) of the services. You seem to think it's as as simple as walking into a dairy and paying $2 that goes into the dairy owners account. It's not. 

 

When you swipe your credit card in London ...

 

 

Well GWRC on behalf of the Greater Wellington Regional Council (GWRC) is providing this invitation on behalf of the New Zealand Public Transport Authorities (PTAs) listed below and the New Zealand Transport Agency. The participating PTAs are:
• Greater Wellington Regional Council
• Auckland Transport
• Environment Canterbury
• Regional Consortium - comprising nine other PTAs. 

 

This Registration of Interest (ROI) is for the intended procurement of a next generation public transport ticketing solution for New Zealand.

 

https://www.gets.govt.nz/GWRC/ExternalTenderDetails.htm?id=19810478

 

 

 

So it's happening





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https://plus.google.com/+laurencechiu

 

 


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  Reply # 2103525 8-Oct-2018 19:29
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lchiu7:

 

Well GWRC on behalf of the Greater Wellington Regional Council (GWRC) is providing this invitation on behalf of the New Zealand Public Transport Authorities (PTAs) listed below and the New Zealand Transport Agency. The participating PTAs are:
• Greater Wellington Regional Council
• Auckland Transport
• Environment Canterbury
• Regional Consortium - comprising nine other PTAs. 

 

This Registration of Interest (ROI) is for the intended procurement of a next generation public transport ticketing solution for New Zealand.

 

https://www.gets.govt.nz/GWRC/ExternalTenderDetails.htm?id=19810478

 

So it's happening

 

 

That doesn't make what sbiddle said wrong . all those considerations he mentioned still have to be worked through to roll out direct credit card contactless.

 

Interesting that AT is part of this tender - have they finally decided that the Thales solution is a total dog's breakfast, and they should have gone with an actual expert in public transport ticketing rather than weapons manufacturing?


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