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Dingbatt
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  #2052923 10-Jul-2018 21:02
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frankv: /snip
which should provide savings longterm.


 


Just like the Auckland Super City did!




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FineWine
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  #2052926 10-Jul-2018 21:04
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frankv:

FireEngine:


Yeah I'm not questioning the P8 decision, but we seem to be spending $1.0B or so to relocate the squadron when a much cheaper dispersed weapons facility would be a more cost-effective solution at near-zero operational hit. 



I doubt that weapons storage is the big factor in the move to Ohakea. More likely, it's to free up land in Auckland for housing. Sale of that land will offset the cost. And, whilst it will cost a lot to make the move, it will centralise RNZAF operations, which should provide savings longterm.


 


That was my suspicions as well. Ohakea also has the better armarments storage facilities being an ex bomber and fighter base.




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amiga500

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  #2053007 10-Jul-2018 22:45
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One of the best things about the P8's will be their reliability. The Boeing 737-800 has a despatch reliability of 99.x %. One of the very best of any airliner. (Despatch reliability means that a plane can have a delay caused by a mechanical issue but if it can be fixed very quickly it won't affect the despatch reliability score. Let's say a 737 is scheduled to depart at 0700 and at 0650 the crew realise that the door to the flight deck won't lock. If the crew or ground engineer can fix the problem by say, 0710, it is not counted as a delay.)

 

Imagine there is some crisis and our PM needs to go to Australia for a face to face meeting with the Australian PM, a P8 could be relied on to leave on time, & return to NZ on time. I have no idea how good the B757 despatch reliability is but I bet it is not as good as a nice new B737! The P8 has a crew rest area and lots of other crew seats so plenty of room for our PM and a few other people. With a refueling stop in Brisbane & Darwin they could get to Singapore quite well too.


old3eyes
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  #2053116 11-Jul-2018 08:44
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frankv:

 

FireEngine:

 

Yeah I'm not questioning the P8 decision, but we seem to be spending $1.0B or so to relocate the squadron when a much cheaper dispersed weapons facility would be a more cost-effective solution at near-zero operational hit. 

 

 

I doubt that weapons storage is the big factor in the move to Ohakea. More likely, it's to free up land in Auckland for housing. Sale of that land will offset the cost. And, whilst it will cost a lot to make the move, it will centralise RNZAF operations, which should provide savings longterm.

 

 

 

 

Yep the NIMBYs who blocked the second Auckland airport there a couple of years ago will be popping the Champaign corks as they see their house values go up as the evil  airforce  closes Whenuapai .





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tripper1000
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  #2053123 11-Jul-2018 09:09
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frankv:

 

I doubt that weapons storage is the big factor in the move to Ohakea. More likely, it's to free up land in Auckland for housing. Sale of that land will offset the cost. And, whilst it will cost a lot to make the move, it will centralise RNZAF operations, which should provide savings longterm.

 

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the primary reason for the move is runway length. P8 carries less (hours of) gas than a P3 but needs more runway to take-off.

 

Weapons (Bombs/depth charges) are loaded at Ohakea because Whenuapai has been build out and safety zones encroached. Given the infrequency of carrying live weapons, loading in Ohakea has been a minor inconvenience for the P3's.

 

Defence has not benefited from previous land sales - quite the contrary. Sovereign Yachts was sold land for their building right in the threshold of the runway at Hobsonville (then promptly went bust) in an act of sabotage by the former Labour Govt. Hobsonville housing was snatched from defence without any warning or compensation (eviction notices to staff from a civilian company was the first clue, which was extremely embarrassing for defence management/leadership ), and relocation/rebuild/leasing replacement costs have not been paid for out of sale proceeds. The Govt own the land defence sit upon and can take it back on a whim.

 

The public needs to look seriously at whether Whenuapia should or should not close. The Auckland airport company - a commercial organisation, expects the New Zealand taxpayer to build rail and motorways to their front door to support their business where as Whenuapia sits at the junction of two motorways already. Also West Auckland badly needs more commercial activity to solve the traffic issues caused by Auckland's imbalance between where people reside and are employed.

 

There is the civil aid aspect during a natural disaster as well. Did you ever wonder who housed and feed all the extra fire and USAR people during the Chch earth quake recovery? It was Burnham. They were making (and delivering) over 1000 extra meals a day.


frankv
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  #2054456 11-Jul-2018 16:37
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I didn't mean to imply that Defence would get the benefit of selling off Whenuapai. But the Govt will, and they're the ones paying for the P8s.

 

I don't really care very much whether Whenuapai closes or not, or what it's used for if it does close. Maybe it could be used for commercial activity rather than housing. But it seems to me that using it as an RNZAF base is inefficient use of high-value real estate.

 

 


Technofreak
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  #2054677 11-Jul-2018 23:04
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wellygary:

Dinga96:


I would be really keen to see these aircraft replace the Hercs.The smart money is on the C130J though and its hard to see them going for something else. 


While the J's would seem an ideal replacement, they still have the issue of not being able to carry the NH90s, meaning any rapid disaster response around the pacific is limited to having them arrive by Ship....


Most other countries that have C130s, also have some other larger Tactical lift Capacity, but NZ does not.....



New Zealand cannot justify/afford both C130's and a larger tactical lift capacity.

My money would be on the C130. The C130 fits more of our missions better I believe. The A400M is bigger than we need most of the time and wouldn't be able to be used in places we now use the C130. We will lose capability with the A400M.

In my opinion the NH90 purchase was an expensive mistake, their running cost is multiples of the old Hueys. The NH90's should be replaced by something smaller and cheaper to run. This would kill two birds with one stone. Give us a more affordable helicopter option and have a helicopter that can be deployed in the C130.

Airbus have certainly been putting the ground work in in support of the A400M. They've even bought Safe Air off Air New Zealand. Safe Air have very long relationship providing maintenance support for the RNZAF.

I fear an A400M purchase will be another expensive mistake like the NH90.




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SaltyNZ
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  #2054712 12-Jul-2018 07:55
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On the other hand, the A400M does have the advantage of not being subject to the whims of the increasingly unstable USA. Given that Australia bought P-8s, that probably was our best choice, but otherwise it would've been interesting to have put more consideration into the Kawasaki P-1.





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Tinkerisk
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  #2054717 12-Jul-2018 08:14
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Any thoughts about MedEvacKits, LowAlt Aerial Delivery, Desaster Support, in short - everything you need when you are not involved in a war?





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wellygary
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  #2054764 12-Jul-2018 09:23
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SaltyNZ:

 

it would've been interesting to have put more consideration into the Kawasaki P-1.

 

 

I suspect that the P1 was never in serious contention as its essentially a bespoke aircraft, having to source parts from either NZ or Japan while deployed somewhere like the mid-east would have been a nightmare,

 

At least with the P8s we can borrow from operational partners, and failing that, the local 737 parts stockists..... 


ResponseMediaNZ
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  #2054794 12-Jul-2018 09:54
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tripper1000:

 

frankv:

 

I doubt that weapons storage is the big factor in the move to Ohakea. More likely, it's to free up land in Auckland for housing. Sale of that land will offset the cost. And, whilst it will cost a lot to make the move, it will centralise RNZAF operations, which should provide savings longterm.

 

As mentioned earlier in the thread, the primary reason for the move is runway length. P8 carries less (hours of) gas than a P3 but needs more runway to take-off.

 

Weapons (Bombs/depth charges) are loaded at Ohakea because Whenuapai has been build out and safety zones encroached. Given the infrequency of carrying live weapons, loading in Ohakea has been a minor inconvenience for the P3's.

 

Defence has not benefited from previous land sales - quite the contrary. Sovereign Yachts was sold land for their building right in the threshold of the runway at Hobsonville (then promptly went bust) in an act of sabotage by the former Labour Govt. Hobsonville housing was snatched from defence without any warning or compensation (eviction notices to staff from a civilian company was the first clue, which was extremely embarrassing for defence management/leadership ), and relocation/rebuild/leasing replacement costs have not been paid for out of sale proceeds. The Govt own the land defence sit upon and can take it back on a whim.

 

The public needs to look seriously at whether Whenuapia should or should not close. The Auckland airport company - a commercial organisation, expects the New Zealand taxpayer to build rail and motorways to their front door to support their business where as Whenuapia sits at the junction of two motorways already. Also West Auckland badly needs more commercial activity to solve the traffic issues caused by Auckland's imbalance between where people reside and are employed.

 

There is the civil aid aspect during a natural disaster as well. Did you ever wonder who housed and feed all the extra fire and USAR people during the Chch earth quake recovery? It was Burnham. They were making (and delivering) over 1000 extra meals a day.

 

 

Not to forget the first flight in and out of chch in 2011 was 2 RNZAF Aircraft. our 757's were one of the best lift assets during the initial response.

 

Problem is the general public do not understand the value added services the NZDF provide not just to our country but to any place they are deployed.
This is true for most military around the world.. the media focus on the armed side of the defence force and most of the time forget that the HADR (Humanitarian Assistance and Disaster Relief) side is bigger than going into combat

 

If you are interested there is a public document about NZDF HADR http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/downloads/pdf/public-docs/HADR-Aide-Memoire-2012.pdf


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