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  Reply # 2097209 27-Sep-2018 09:06
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tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

And if you look at the map, include future and under construction, you can take that as 100% NZ coverage

 

 

"Future" and "under construction" isn't much good for next week's trip or even next year's trip around the South Island! Other than massively expensive Teslas, the only EV that's any good for getting you from Hokitika to Wanaka is a BMW i3 with a range extender, so petrol still has a large part to play for a long time yet!

 

 

Until EV supplies exist in numbers, its not relevant. They aren't there to buy. So while numbers are low in terms of current sales of new EV's and probably lower for imported pre owned, people with range needs that aren't met by the network, won't buy. Sales are not affected as others will buy what is a very small number. Long time yet? How long is that? 2 years, 5 years, 10 years?  The limiting factor is supplies of cars. That will take a lot longer than a small number of under construction and future stations.

 

 

You say that people with range needs that aren't met by the network won't buy. But, you can't always determine in advance what your "range needs" are going to be! At present, it's impractical for most people to just own an EV for all their driving needs. So that's why many EV owners also own a petrol vehicle and I think that situation will exist for a long time to come!


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  Reply # 2097213 27-Sep-2018 09:21
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

And if you look at the map, include future and under construction, you can take that as 100% NZ coverage

 

 

"Future" and "under construction" isn't much good for next week's trip or even next year's trip around the South Island! Other than massively expensive Teslas, the only EV that's any good for getting you from Hokitika to Wanaka is a BMW i3 with a range extender, so petrol still has a large part to play for a long time yet!

 

 

Until EV supplies exist in numbers, its not relevant. They aren't there to buy. So while numbers are low in terms of current sales of new EV's and probably lower for imported pre owned, people with range needs that aren't met by the network, won't buy. Sales are not affected as others will buy what is a very small number. Long time yet? How long is that? 2 years, 5 years, 10 years?  The limiting factor is supplies of cars. That will take a lot longer than a small number of under construction and future stations.

 

 

You say that people with range needs that aren't met by the network won't buy. But, you can't always determine in advance what your "range needs" are going to be! At present, it's impractical for most people to just own an EV for all their driving needs. So that's why many EV owners also own a petrol vehicle and I think that situation will exist for a long time to come!

 

 

Maybe, but thats a very expensive car when you buy an overpriced EV, then retain your ICE and incur the ongoing costs with that. Most I feel would replace the car not add to it, thats a very very expensive EV. Or, hold onto the ICE and wait.


 
 
 
 




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  Reply # 2097220 27-Sep-2018 09:38
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tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

And if you look at the map, include future and under construction, you can take that as 100% NZ coverage

 

 

"Future" and "under construction" isn't much good for next week's trip or even next year's trip around the South Island! Other than massively expensive Teslas, the only EV that's any good for getting you from Hokitika to Wanaka is a BMW i3 with a range extender, so petrol still has a large part to play for a long time yet!

 

 

Until EV supplies exist in numbers, its not relevant. They aren't there to buy. So while numbers are low in terms of current sales of new EV's and probably lower for imported pre owned, people with range needs that aren't met by the network, won't buy. Sales are not affected as others will buy what is a very small number. Long time yet? How long is that? 2 years, 5 years, 10 years?  The limiting factor is supplies of cars. That will take a lot longer than a small number of under construction and future stations.

 

 

You say that people with range needs that aren't met by the network won't buy. But, you can't always determine in advance what your "range needs" are going to be! At present, it's impractical for most people to just own an EV for all their driving needs. So that's why many EV owners also own a petrol vehicle and I think that situation will exist for a long time to come!

 

 

Maybe, but thats a very expensive car when you buy an overpriced EV, then retain your ICE and incur the ongoing costs with that. Most I feel would replace the car not add to it, thats a very very expensive EV. Or, hold onto the ICE and wait.

 

 

EVs are ideally suited to "two-car" families, and there are heaps of these. One drives the EV to work and the other uses the petrol vehicle. For trips they pile in the kids and all the gear and use the petrol vehicle.

 

But I have to admire hardy "Greenies" who just own their trusty 120km range Nissan Leaf and use this for everything (perhaps to prove a point that this is possible)! On hot summer days after the first fast charge, the good old Nissan battery heats up because it doesn't have a liquid cooling system. So, you have to wait until it cools down before you make it to the next fast charger only to find another couple of Nissan Leafs waiting ahead of you. So you have three cups of coffee, eventually charge up your Nissan again and then wait again because it's overheated again (such fun)!

 

 


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  Reply # 2097301 27-Sep-2018 10:46
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frednz:

 

Yes, our national charging network could be a lot better, for example, in parts of the South Island. Take a look at this map

 

https://charge.net.nz/map/

 

Now say you want to travel in your EV from Hokitika to Wanaka, a distance of about 420 kms. You can charge up at Hokitika and also at Wanaka, but at present there's nothing in between!

 

So, how do you do this distance in your Nissan Leaf or even in your new Hyundai 64 kWh 400km range EV?

 

At the moment, EVs are great for driving around town and for charging up at home. But, if you are travelling long distances, particularly around the South Island, it's better to take your petrol vehicle! Which all goes to show that petrol vehicles will be around for a long while because owning just an EV is not a practical proposition quite yet!

 

 

We are still at the early adopter stage. Fast charging networks are yet to blanket the country. Electric & liquid fueled vehicles are likely to coexist for decades. That said, A significant portion of NZ households have multiple vehicles. In a family setting it is common that the smaller vehicles in the fleet never leave town, so uptake could be significant even with no long distance charging network.

Regarding the example Hokitika to Wanaka trip, we are fortunate that we can look outside of the chargenet network, and that campgrounds act as informal slow charge station's in remote area's. (require a cable to suit blue commando sockets)

https://www.plugshare.com/location/76661

In the Hyundai 400km EV, you could take your pick along the route, and stop for a couple of hours (3kW charge yields about 20km/hour) at the campground of your choosing (fortunately many are in nice settings, and close to nature walks etc.).

In an older leaf, it would require multiple overnight stops. Fine if you are on holiday, and happy with a slow touring pace, but not so good for other travel. If you look at the "check in's" on plugshare, it shows while not many, both leaf's and tesla's have made this trip.





wratterus:

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/107372241/ev-drivers-are-bludgers-costing-nz-roads-7m-per-year

 

Why should other motorists be subsidizing EV drivers?

 


I also personally still don't buy into electric cars as being 'great for the environment' - not yet anyway, not until they can come up with a better battery/energy storage or whatever you want to call it. Sure, lower emissions in larger cities will definitely be beneficial to that area, but if you look at the total emissions/environmental cost of manufacturing/charging an electric car, then recycling the batteries down the track, is it really any better than a normal vehicle?

 

I would love to find some 'real' info on this subject, but there is so much rubbish info and propaganda out on the web that it it hard to tell what is legit and what isn't. 

 

 

Regarding Life cycle analysis of EV's, in an New Zealand setting, the EECA commissioned an independent report into this topic. The short answer, yes they are much better than internal combustion engine cars.

https://www.eeca.govt.nz/news-and-events/media-releases/research-confirms-environmental-benefits-of-electric-vehicles/

 

https://www.eeca.govt.nz/assets/Resources-EECA/ev-lca-final-report-nov-2015.pdf

 


Regarding the Stuff opinion peice, the use of the word bludgers in the title is a pritty clear sign it is going to be an emotive beat up piece.

Reality is that NZ has signed the Paris accord, and need to reduce our emissions meet our obligations (or pay substantial funds to other countries). Transport is out second biggest emitter. (after agriculture, which we can't do much about, unless we are willing to cut back on that, and become very poor as a country). As such, we need to take some steps to get our transport system's greener.

Temporally zero rating RUC's for EV's (essentially a small subsidy), to encourage early adopters to buy EV's, seems money well spent to this end. The way I see it, is having a lot of early adopters, means that the industry will be tooled up for when EV's become more mainstream. Things like: private charging networks (charge.net), and associated industries (EVSE (charging cords) suppliers, English conversions, battery cell replacements, dealer staff knowledge etc. Also, car buyers in say 5 years time, are going to be more comfortable buying an EV if they have been seeing them around for years, and appear to be a mature technology.). An alternative option could be to have no subsidies, and tax vehicles at purchase based on their emissions band.

 

Another point I would like to make, is that motorists are massively subsidized as a whole. Substantial general taxation goes into roads, (to top up Retrol taxes & RUC's), and a decent portion of general rates go into maintaining the local roading network. Plus things like the provision of ampal parking being forced onto developers (outside of CBD's) via minimum car-parking requirements, and the social norm that places like malls provide free parking for customers, (but not say free bus / train tickets). We need to be carefull that EV subsidies don't place evolve to general motoring subsidies, when they become very common. Walking to work is still far more green than driving an EV...

If you want to find a group that is unfairly targeted to contribute towards roads, look at recreational boaties. A days water-skiing or game fishing can easily burn 100L+ of petrol, and no rebates for road tax, or Auckland fuel tax are available.

 



Final point is that zero rating electric vehicle RUC's has allowed the government to ignore the issues with our current petrol tax / RUC scheme.

In short, a vehicle with a petrol engine burning approx 7L/100km in the real world world will pay the same amount of road tax as a RUC paying vehicle (i.e. diesel vehicles, and EV's if no exemption). A Polo using 4.5L/100km in it petrol variant pays way less the road tax of say a VW polo diesel. Not surprising VW no longer offers the polo in diesel. A Toyota Hilux petrol V6 using 14L/100km in the real world, would pay double the road tax of the diesel equivalent. Not supping that the sales of the petrol hilux were so low, that Toyota has stopped offering it. Fortuitously this has saved our cities from being clogged with diesel smoke from small cars as happens in Europe. With larger vehicles, it has encouraged diesel power trains which is good for CO2 emissions, but bad for air quality.

If electric vehicles were taxed at standard RUC rates, they would roughly double the road tax of a new Prius. This is the opposite what our government should be encouraging, and would make Prius's cheaper to run than Leaf's. Also, plug in hybrids would (I think) be able to claim back petrol tax paid, if RUC's applied to them. This would result in a lot of paperwork as they become more common.

 

 

 

 




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2097386 27-Sep-2018 11:39
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Scott3:

 

We are still at the early adopter stage. Fast charging networks are yet to blanket the country. Electric & liquid fueled vehicles are likely to coexist for decades. That said, A significant portion of NZ households have multiple vehicles. In a family setting it is common that the smaller vehicles in the fleet never leave town, so uptake could be significant even with no long distance charging network.

Regarding the example Hokitika to Wanaka trip, we are fortunate that we can look outside of the chargenet network, and that campgrounds act as informal slow charge station's in remote area's. (require a cable to suit blue commando sockets)

https://www.plugshare.com/location/76661

In the Hyundai 400km EV, you could take your pick along the route, and stop for a couple of hours (3kW charge yields about 20km/hour) at the campground of your choosing (fortunately many are in nice settings, and close to nature walks etc.).

In an older leaf, it would require multiple overnight stops. Fine if you are on holiday, and happy with a slow touring pace, but not so good for other travel. If you look at the "check in's" on plugshare, it shows while not many, both leaf's and tesla's have made this trip.

 

 

Yes, I have heard of some EV owners who have successfully managed to use campsites to charge-up where ChargeNet facilities don't yet exist. But as you mention they are slow charge stations and might require an overnight stop.

 

Also, during peek summer months, is it practical to rely on campsites having these facilities available? Perhaps you might need to book ahead to make sure you can get a charging point? In other words, it seems that this facility is mainly for the hardy EV enthusiast and not so much for people who are used to easily finding petrol stations and refuelling in a few minutes to give a range of 700 kms or more!


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  Reply # 2097413 27-Sep-2018 11:54
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frednz:

 

 

 

Also, during peek summer months, is it practical to rely on campsites having these facilities available? Perhaps you might need to book ahead to make sure you can get a charging point? In other words, it seems that this facility is mainly for the hardy EV enthusiast and not so much for people who are used to easily finding petrol stations and refuelling in a few minutes to give a range of 700 kms or more!

 

 

I agree, so those people choose now not to buy an EV, for those reasons




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  Reply # 2097618 27-Sep-2018 16:17
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tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

 

 

Also, during peek summer months, is it practical to rely on campsites having these facilities available? Perhaps you might need to book ahead to make sure you can get a charging point? In other words, it seems that this facility is mainly for the hardy EV enthusiast and not so much for people who are used to easily finding petrol stations and refuelling in a few minutes to give a range of 700 kms or more!

 

 

I agree, so those people choose now not to buy an EV, for those reasons

 

 

I don't think that should stop you buying an EV unless you regularly want to travel between Hokitika and Wanaka. It's more a question of doing a lot of research before you buy and making sure that you are fully prepared to accept the compromises you need to make when driving an EV compared to driving a petrol vehicle. At the moment, I think there is considerable merit in owning an EV and also owning an ICE vehicle (or a hybrid) so that you can use the latter for long tours.


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  Reply # 2098032 28-Sep-2018 10:12
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NZ continues its quest to usurp ENG from the whinging poms label. Well, its from Stuff, maybe thats why

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/107372241/ev-drivers-are-bludgers-costing-nz-roads-7m-per-year

 

Its less than 7 M as not every electric car is all electric. Not everyone drives 14000km per year. $7M won't fix many roads. A few thousand cars are not spewing gases for the following cars to drive though. When EV's reach a very small % of the market, thois subsidy will cease and they will pay

 

I can't see the issue. Bludgers? Spare me


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  Reply # 2098140 28-Sep-2018 13:47
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tdgeek:

 

NZ continues its quest to usurp ENG from the whinging poms label. Well, its from Stuff, maybe thats why

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/107372241/ev-drivers-are-bludgers-costing-nz-roads-7m-per-year

 

Its less than 7 M as not every electric car is all electric. Not everyone drives 14000km per year. $7M won't fix many roads. A few thousand cars are not spewing gases for the following cars to drive though. When EV's reach a very small % of the market, thois subsidy will cease and they will pay

 

I can't see the issue. Bludgers? Spare me

 

 

Clickbait.

 

 




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  Reply # 2099656 1-Oct-2018 20:58
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frankv:

 

tdgeek:

 

NZ continues its quest to usurp ENG from the whinging poms label. Well, its from Stuff, maybe thats why

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/107372241/ev-drivers-are-bludgers-costing-nz-roads-7m-per-year

 

Its less than 7 M as not every electric car is all electric. Not everyone drives 14000km per year. $7M won't fix many roads. A few thousand cars are not spewing gases for the following cars to drive though. When EV's reach a very small % of the market, thois subsidy will cease and they will pay

 

I can't see the issue. Bludgers? Spare me

 

 

Clickbait.

 

 

 

 

I agree that it's "clickbait" and is a most inappropriate headline. However, some of the points made are at least worthy of discussion. The article mentions that:

 

Of course how much individual motorists pay in excise duty and RUCs depends on how much petrol they consume and how many kilometres owners of diesel vehicles travel. But given that in NZ the average light vehicle is estimated to travel about 14,000 km a year, then it's fair to assume that the annual duty/RUC cost per vehicle is around $1000.

 

That's unless the car is a pure electric vehicle – because they don't pay anything at all.

 

Obviously pure EVs don't consume any petrol, and the Government has exempted them from paying any RUCs. The bureaucrats say this is intended as one way of encouraging people to buy the vehicles. This exemption will continue either until 2021 or until EVs comprise 2 per cent of our light vehicle fleet, whichever comes first.

 

Energy and Resources Minister Megan Woods and Acting Associate Transport Minister James Shaw have jointly boasted that there are now 10,000 EVs on NZ's roads. Shaw added that this was an important milestone, particularly considering that just five years ago there was only 210 EVs registered here....

 

But is it fair that this growing fleet of electric vehicles should be contributing nothing towards meeting the cost of the wear and tear they are causing to NZ's roading network?

 

Now if you ignore the emotive "bludgers" headline, wasn't it fair enough to ask whether electric vehicle owners should be exempt from "contributing towards meeting the cost of the wear and tear they are causing to NZ's roading network"?

 

On the TV1 news tonight the rising cost of petrol was highlighted and it was suggested that there will be a big increase in people buying EVs because of this petrol price rise. But the very high cost of new EVs wasn't mentioned and neither was the limited range of Nissan Leafs! The extra cost of owning two vehicles, one EV and one petrol wasn't considered either, because this is necessary for a lot of Leaf owners.

 

I'm all in favour of EVs, but the rather unbalanced reporting that goes on is suggesting that people should rush to buy an EV in order to "beat" the petrol price rises, when it's likely that, even when owning an EV, this isn't all that easy to achieve.

 

For example, why is it always assumed that everyone will be charging up with electricity that costs just 15 cents per kWh, when it can cost a great deal more than that if ChargeNet fast chargers are used?


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  Reply # 2099829 2-Oct-2018 09:11
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Dinga96:

 

Obvious solution would be to exclude rentals and the trade vehicles .Then you can say this is what the most popular car bought by individuals ,not for commercial purposes.That's where I would draw the line wellgary

 

 

To me the obvious solution is to look at what is bought new and what is imported used. It doesn't matter who buys them, those are the cars the end up in the national fleet.  To state the obvious: Choice in the used NZ-new vehicle market is determined by what is bought new in NZ (imports more complex).  Most people buy used cars.

 

This highlights that govt could make a significant difference by buying up EVs for suitable applications.  Those vehicles will eventually enter the used market as NZ-new vehicles.  Assuming sufficient supply of RHD EVs exists (highly questionable), govt could buy in bulk more cheaply and have a significant impact.





Mike



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  Reply # 2099889 2-Oct-2018 11:29
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MikeAqua:

 

Dinga96:

 

Obvious solution would be to exclude rentals and the trade vehicles .Then you can say this is what the most popular car bought by individuals ,not for commercial purposes.That's where I would draw the line wellgary

 

 

To me the obvious solution is to look at what is bought new and what is imported used. It doesn't matter who buys them, those are the cars the end up in the national fleet.  To state the obvious: Choice in the used NZ-new vehicle market is determined by what is bought new in NZ (imports more complex).  Most people buy used cars.

 

This highlights that govt could make a significant difference by buying up EVs for suitable applications.  Those vehicles will eventually enter the used market as NZ-new vehicles.  Assuming sufficient supply of RHD EVs exists (highly questionable), govt could buy in bulk more cheaply and have a significant impact.

 

 

Because most people buy used cars, then perhaps any Government incentives for EVs should also include purchase discounts on both NZ-new and used EVs?

 

For example, the Government could offer a discount of, say, 20% on all EVs purchased, with a maximum discount of, say, $10,000.

 

I realise that buyers of used EVs are already getting the benefit of overseas EV subsidies, but if the Government wants EV sales to take off, then a discount scheme on all EVs might be the way to go?


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  Reply # 2099926 2-Oct-2018 12:24
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tdgeek:

 

I thought it was more like 25k to 30k? I'm looking at standard new cars admittedly as they will hold more market share by volume than upmarket.

 

IMHO I feel the growth will be the left of a bell curve with a long left leg. This isn't analogue to digital TV, its a major purchase. As per my earlier post if you loaned interest free a good amount, thats a lot cheaper than throwing away $10k+ which is the global norm. If you can buy then, and pay back, and be better off fuel wise its a worthwhile option. Saving every week from day one. Import a lot of used Leaf type EV's too. Maybe that will kickstart something

 

 

Worth noting the Aussies are now entering the used-LEAF import market. Their tarrifs and import taxes had beejn a major obstacle....but there appears to be a new opening that allows 3rd-parties to import for re-sale.....and several car vendors are taking advantage of it. 

This will increase the competition for used RHD EVs.......and "support" prices here.  





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


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  Reply # 2099927 2-Oct-2018 12:25
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wellygary:

 

Dinga96:

 

I can see a lot of people going on the waiting list.

 

I think this happened just after WWII ,and now it's about to happen all over again.

 

 

Don't worry,  long waiting lists is something this government is good at... 

 

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/361105/thousands-sign-up-for-kiwibuild-in-first-day

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/104645761/public-housing-waiting-list-surges-8108-awaiting-homes-in-april

 

 

At least there's now something to wait for.......





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  Reply # 2099936 2-Oct-2018 12:30
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Linuxluver:

 

wellygary:

 

Dinga96:

 

I can see a lot of people going on the waiting list.

 

I think this happened just after WWII ,and now it's about to happen all over again.

 

 

Don't worry,  long waiting lists is something this government is good at... 

 

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/361105/thousands-sign-up-for-kiwibuild-in-first-day

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/104645761/public-housing-waiting-list-surges-8108-awaiting-homes-in-april

 

 

At least there's now something to wait for.......

 

 

I saw on TV that there isn't a housing crisis. Some pre election televised meeting.....


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