Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.
Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | ... | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19
5246 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1132

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 2100911 3-Oct-2018 18:14
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

mdf:

 

flat road made of fairy dust.

 

I figure I should discount range by 20% (?) for living in Wellington with all them hills.

 

I do quite like (at least in principle, I've not driven one) the Hyundai idea of paddle shifting regenerative braking levels. Steep downhill: turn up the regenerative braking. Don't need to touch the brake pedal.

 

In theory.

 

 

True. Range depends on speed, wind, terrain, driving style and loading (one person or four?).

Same as petrol. :-) 

I've driven the Ioniq for several days and I just left in the full-regen mode all the time. Why waste an opportunity to make power?  :-) 

 

Hills aren't really an issue as long as you get to go down them....and make some power. What does matter more is rises in altitude that you can't regain on the same charge - like driving from Auckland to Taupo. You're rising over 360m from sea level and you can't get that back until after the Desert Road.....then you'll think you're riding a perpetual motion machine that uses no energy at all.....at least until Mangaweka, after the last BIG downhill. :-)

 

 

 

 





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


1421 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 205


  Reply # 2100946 3-Oct-2018 18:21
2 people support this post
Send private message quote this post

Linuxluver:

 


I hear the anti-incentive ideology and the class jealousy....not I don't see any practical solutions for the actual problem: carbon emissions.

How you you reduce carbon emissions......given catalytic converters and DPFs do noting at all to address carbon emissions? Do you see any solutions possible within your anti-incentive / class jealousy paradigm?

 

 

Nope.  Adam Smith is still 100% right.  Case in point with free range eggs - everyone supports the idea until it comes time to part with the cash.  Politicians know that significant wholesale changes that will impact the consumers wallet will result in political suicide.  Paying the automakers, who are not short on profitability, with taxpayer dollars remains a stupid idea.  


5246 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1132

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 2100947 3-Oct-2018 18:22
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

GV27:

 

So a tradie pays 20% extra on a work ute (just a few extra thousand, no big deal) as a punishment for not buying an electric ute instead, which they can't buy because no one makes one yet?

 

Families buying people movers effectively end up paying a 20% tax to underwrite people who can afford Tesla Model Xs? 

 

Can't see any problems there. 

 



The idea is to equalise the price until the manufacturers make the change. It's *obvious* they won't make the change if they aren't compelled to do so.

Obviously, you can't punish the tradie for not buying something that doesn't exist. So instead you REQUIRE EVs utes exist.....and then equalise the price. 

 

I'd expect the car vendors to be penalised for not offering EV utes.....which is how California does it. They require a certain percentage of each class of vehicle to be electric. If you don't make the target, you pay. But the car makers can buy surplus credits from vehicle makers who have exceeded their quota.

This has been a major revenue stream for Tesla as they make ZERO dino-burners and have credits to spare....which they sell to the ute makers.

The answer to the tradie problem is for tradies to demand EV utes......backed by a government that requires a rising percentage of utes sold to be EVs. Then provide incentives on the EV utes that come to market......paid for by the non-EV utes. 






____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


5246 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1132

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 2100949 3-Oct-2018 18:25
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

ockel:

 

Linuxluver:

 


I hear the anti-incentive ideology and the class jealousy....not I don't see any practical solutions for the actual problem: carbon emissions.

How you you reduce carbon emissions......given catalytic converters and DPFs do noting at all to address carbon emissions? Do you see any solutions possible within your anti-incentive / class jealousy paradigm?

 

 

Nope.  Adam Smith is still 100% right.  Case in point with free range eggs - everyone supports the idea until it comes time to part with the cash.  Politicians know that significant wholesale changes that will impact the consumers wallet will result in political suicide.  Paying the automakers, who are not short on profitability, with taxpayer dollars remains a stupid idea.  

 



You reduce the profitability on the undesirable vehicles. Easily done. Use the money gathered to make EVs cheaper. It's being done every day elsewhere.

I buy free range eggs only, so I don't see your point there as valid.

Adam Smith would have failed hopelessly to address climate change. Good thing he's dead.





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


5246 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1132

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 2100963 3-Oct-2018 18:39
Send private message quote this post

MikeAqua:

 

Linuxluver:

 

Towing a boat? Fine....if you MUST own a boat and tow it around the place, you need something bigger. I don't need that. Boats are not "practical". ;-) 

 

 

Boats are very practical when the bach is water-only access.

 

https://www.google.co.nz/maps/place/41%C2%B013'58.1%22S+173%C2%B057'54.5%22E/@-41.232801,173.9629785,352m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m6!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d-41.2328009!4d173.9651497?hl=en 

 

 

A bach that is only accessible by water isn't "practical". Just highlighting how subjective "practical" is.

Also related: I care about climate change, but now I'm going to engage in purposeful behaviours that don't address it at all....and I'm going to call that "practical".

"So it goes"......as Kurt Vonnegut would write, when contemplating avoidable death.....

"'So it goes." The words recur throughout the book ("Slaughterhouse 5") each time a death is recorded and what they imply lies at the centre of any understanding of Vonnegut's work: fatalism, stoicism and the acceptance that no use will come of shrinking away when the worst has happened."





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


13556 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2448

Trusted

  Reply # 2101005 3-Oct-2018 19:38
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

Linuxluver:

 

ockel:

 

The alternative is to require all vehicles to have catalytic converters and DPF's to significantly reduce vehicle emissions (80-90%).  Banging on about EV's that suit a small minority of people and/or transferring wealth from the taxpayer to automakers is not helpful.  

 

It would be cheaper to fund cc's and dpf's from the consolidated fund than to subsidise the middle/upper class to buy EV's.  

 

 

You forgot about climate change. A catalytic converter does zero for carbon emissions. A deisel particulate filter also does zero about carbon emissions.

People keep doing that: forgetting about the BIGGEST problem.

Your ideology is getting in the way of practically addressing transport carbon emissions. Blinkers can kill....and will in time. Take the blinkers off. 

You've also ignored the part about giving cars way to people who need them.....while moaning about helping the people who CAN afford cars to buy electric instead.

I hear the anti-incentive ideology and the class jealousy....not I don't see any practical solutions for the actual problem: carbon emissions.

How you you reduce carbon emissions......given catalytic converters and DPFs do noting at all to address carbon emissions? Do you see any solutions possible within your anti-incentive / class jealousy paradigm?

 

 

I think I mentioned that early on. But got ignored as many sensible comments do.

 

Are we subsiding ski bunnies to update their already cool SUV? No. If climate change is a hoax, if of its not our problem as we are small, or if it wont amount to much, I agree with the anti subsidy brigade. 

 

I'll ask Donald, he is the POTUS, he will tell me its fake news.


509 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 224


  Reply # 2101031 3-Oct-2018 20:39
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

Linuxluver:

 

GV27:

 

So a tradie pays 20% extra on a work ute (just a few extra thousand, no big deal) as a punishment for not buying an electric ute instead, which they can't buy because no one makes one yet?

 

Families buying people movers effectively end up paying a 20% tax to underwrite people who can afford Tesla Model Xs? 

 

Can't see any problems there. 

 



The idea is to equalise the price until the manufacturers make the change. It's *obvious* they won't make the change if they aren't compelled to do so.

Obviously, you can't punish the tradie for not buying something that doesn't exist. So instead you REQUIRE EVs utes exist.....and then equalise the price. 

 

I'd expect the car vendors to be penalised for not offering EV utes.....which is how California does it. They require a certain percentage of each class of vehicle to be electric. If you don't make the target, you pay. But the car makers can buy surplus credits from vehicle makers who have exceeded their quota.

This has been a major revenue stream for Tesla as they make ZERO dino-burners and have credits to spare....which they sell to the ute makers.

The answer to the tradie problem is for tradies to demand EV utes......backed by a government that requires a rising percentage of utes sold to be EVs. Then provide incentives on the EV utes that come to market......paid for by the non-EV utes. 

 

Population of California: 40 million people.

Population of NZ: 5 million people.

 

If we tell people they can't sell cars here then they just won't sell cars here. We're not a big enough market. As it happens, EV utes are coming, but throwing millions of dollars of Government money at people won't make them arrive any faster than they can be developed. 


gzt

10254 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1576


  Reply # 2101076 3-Oct-2018 21:44
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

mdf: I figure I should discount range by 20% (?) for living in Wellington with all them hills.

I've driven a leaf ev in hilly conditions and in practice it evens out with the downhill regen. They all have regen to my knowledge. Imo the vehicle management systems are excellent.

3165 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1220

Subscriber

  Reply # 2101214 4-Oct-2018 04:29
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

Linuxluver:

GV27:


So a tradie pays 20% extra on a work ute (just a few extra thousand, no big deal) as a punishment for not buying an electric ute instead, which they can't buy because no one makes one yet?


Families buying people movers effectively end up paying a 20% tax to underwrite people who can afford Tesla Model Xs? 


Can't see any problems there. 




The idea is to equalise the price until the manufacturers make the change. It's *obvious* they won't make the change if they aren't compelled to do so.

Obviously, you can't punish the tradie for not buying something that doesn't exist. So instead you REQUIRE EVs utes exist.....and then equalise the price. 


I'd expect the car vendors to be penalised for not offering EV utes.....which is how California does it. They require a certain percentage of each class of vehicle to be electric. If you don't make the target, you pay. But the car makers can buy surplus credits from vehicle makers who have exceeded their quota.

This has been a major revenue stream for Tesla as they make ZERO dino-burners and have credits to spare....which they sell to the ute makers.

The answer to the tradie problem is for tradies to demand EV utes......backed by a government that requires a rising percentage of utes sold to be EVs. Then provide incentives on the EV utes that come to market......paid for by the non-EV utes. 




Except that Nissan will use their subsidies gained from selling Leafs, to allow themselves to keep on selling the Navara Diesel Ute. And Nissan would probably just nett out the costs over Leafs and Navaras.

If GM ever decide to start selling the Bolt EV here. They might see better value in using the subsidies to finally make RHD versions of their V8 yank tanks, and start selling them in NZ. Instead of just selling the subsidy rights.

Most likely, the relative pricing will change somewhat. But EV Utes won't suddenly appear.

Ironically, one of the selling points of those EV Utes to the Aussie mines. Is diesel Utes are suffering from lots of failures due to the mining usage patterns not allowing the particulate filters to regenerate. Although a nice EV use case, it is not typical use case for a Ute.

You have to be very careful, that any subsidies don't cause nasty unintended consequences. Look at the accommodation supplement as an example of that. It just makes rents more expensive. As planning rules stop landlords from increasing the supply of rental properties.





4130 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 753

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 2101301 4-Oct-2018 09:32
3 people support this post
Send private message quote this post

Linuxluver:

 

How you you reduce carbon emissions......given catalytic converters and DPFs do noting at all to address carbon emissions? Do you see any solutions possible within your anti-incentive / class jealousy paradigm?

 

 

Better electrified public transport would seem to be an obvious solution if you want to be inclusive towards people who can't afford an EV.

 

EVs are an important part of reducing carbon emissions, but they are not the only tool in the kit. 


5209 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2119


  Reply # 2101429 4-Oct-2018 11:30
5 people support this post
Send private message quote this post

Linuxluver:

 

You forgot about climate change. A catalytic converter does zero for carbon emissions. A deisel particulate filter also does zero about carbon emissions.

People keep doing that: forgetting about the BIGGEST problem.

 

 

I'm not sure people forget about it.  I see a reference to climate change at least once per day.  Almost impossible to forget.

 

People do disregard climate change, or they pay lip-service to it then carry on, or they feel helpless to make difference.

 

After Y2K, Dow-Jones 10k, several predicted pandemics it's just another predicted catastrophe that lots of people think/hope won't eventuate.  Kind of like White Walkers in GOT.

 

People will buy EVs in droves when the tech and price meet their thresholds. It's no different to microwaves or VCRs or BD players in that regard.  A few rich people buy them now.  Most people will buy them later when they are much, much cheaper.

 

Until then ... people will continue to be apathetic, because that's what people do. 





Mike



969 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 179


  Reply # 2101581 4-Oct-2018 15:02
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

MikeAqua:

Linuxluver:


You forgot about climate change. A catalytic converter does zero for carbon emissions. A deisel particulate filter also does zero about carbon emissions.

People keep doing that: forgetting about the BIGGEST problem.



I'm not sure people forget about it.  I see a reference to climate change at least once per day.  Almost impossible to forget.


People do disregard climate change, or they pay lip-service to it then carry on, or they feel helpless to make difference.


After Y2K, Dow-Jones 10k, several predicted pandemics it's just another predicted catastrophe that lots of people think/hope won't eventuate.  Kind of like White Walkers in GOT.


People will buy EVs in droves when the tech and price meet their thresholds. It's no different to microwaves or VCRs or BD players in that regard.  A few rich people buy them now.  Most people will buy them later when they are much, much cheaper.


Until then ... people will continue to be apathetic, because that's what people do. 



I agree EVs are all about climate change but so are boats and aeroplanes to name but a few. A friend has a launch that takes about 5000 litres of diesel and he goes through that every 2 months or so. And the marina is full of diesel guzzling boats. So what are we doing about them? I think we should all go back to horses and carts and even then Greenies would complain that horses fart and leave piles of dung ..so perhaps we need to walk everywhere and give up travelling overseas. In other words cars are only a minor part of the problem. Consider cruise liners and aeroplanes for instance...they use masses of fuel every minute. Let's ban them right away!

632 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 165


  Reply # 2101613 4-Oct-2018 16:21
Send private message quote this post

frednz:

I agree EVs are all about climate change

 

That is so untrue. My friend purchased a Leaf solely because it was cheaper to run on his commute. He is only driving a short commute each day and even then a cheap second had leaf made sense financially to him.

 

He didn't care about climate change when it came to that purchase, it was just the bottom line.

 

As a second car for around town driving a cheap EV makes sense no question.
In many cases (but not all) it makes sense as a first car.

 

Saying all that in NZ with our 80-90% renewable power an EV is is an excellent choice if you are concerned about climate change.


78 posts

Master Geek
+1 received by user: 22


  Reply # 2101618 4-Oct-2018 16:28
Send private message quote this post

So would anyone like to say when the Govt are going to pull the trigger and get the ev incentive wagons rolling yee haa.
He said soon but Jimmy Shaw was not very convincing when he was talking to Duncan Garner.My prediction for what its worth would be March ,its getting to late in the year now and the polititians will soon all be off on their well deserved break,bless em.


5246 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1132

Trusted
Subscriber

  Reply # 2101648 4-Oct-2018 17:30
Send private message quote this post

Aredwood:

Except that Nissan will use their subsidies gained from selling Leafs, to allow themselves to keep on selling the Navara Diesel Ute. And Nissan would probably just nett out the costs over Leafs and Navaras.

If GM ever decide to start selling the Bolt EV here. They might see better value in using the subsidies to finally make RHD versions of their V8 yank tanks, and start selling them in NZ. Instead of just selling the subsidy rights.

Most likely, the relative pricing will change somewhat. But EV Utes won't suddenly appear.

Ironically, one of the selling points of those EV Utes to the Aussie mines. Is diesel Utes are suffering from lots of failures due to the mining usage patterns not allowing the particulate filters to regenerate. Although a nice EV use case, it is not typical use case for a Ute.

You have to be very careful, that any subsidies don't cause nasty unintended consequences. Look at the accommodation supplement as an example of that. It just makes rents more expensive. As planning rules stop landlords from increasing the supply of rental properties.

 

That's why you require them to sell a rising proportion of EV utes, as I said above. Ideally, a rational market where vehicle makers and buyers were apprised of the dangers presented by climate change would simply meet the requirement. This is where we are reminded how stupid markets really are.....and why regulation is needed. 

I agree with respect to the accomodation supplement. It's insane. But it's what you get when a particular government refuses to build affordable housing and be the landlord. The "market" was never, ever going to meet this need as the market insists on selling houses and apartments and the simple reality of life in NZ today is most people can't afford to buy anything all......so where do they live? National had no answer to that other than to feed cash to private landlords. Thanks. Ka-Ching. 

They should have built thousands of rental units - terraced, semi-detached, low, medium and high rise - and then maybe sell them off as entire buildings / complexes on the condition they remain rentals. 

That's how it's done in many countries....and works far better than what we have been doing. I've lived in apartments like that in Toronto....and they were where young people and the elderly went for housing because they were.......affordable. The answer has been obvious for 50 years. It's ideology that has befuddled the brains of certain political parties and gotten in the way. 

Ideology is a "distortion". Just get the job done. Usually the most practical means stands out like the dog's proverbials.....

In this case, it's simple. You have to strike a balance between utterly fair and very expensive or a not quite as fair, but a lot cheaper. Plus require car vendors to sell what you need them to sell. China does exactly this and the results are immediate and miraculous. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


1 | ... | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19
Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic

Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.