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  Reply # 2101650 4-Oct-2018 17:34
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frednz: A friend has a launch that takes about 5000 litres of diesel and he goes through that every 2 months or so. And the marina is full of diesel guzzling boats. So what are we doing about them?

 

Boats are an issue.  Much more energy wasted on hydro-drag and much worse traction (esp with petrol engines) than road vehicles.

 

My boat weight about 1800kg light with two crew.  140HP/100kW (at the prop shaft) pushes is at a max speed of only 50km/h - that's assuming calm conditions.

 

There are some applications where battery electrics are being used, but they tend to be flat-water, short range, applications; with shallow hulls and minimal payload. 

 

Skinny hulled, light catamarans with modest seem to suit the tech (e.g. torqeedo) well.

 

I've done the spreadsheet exercise of powering my boat with electric motors an batteries for a 25 kmh cruise at 2 hours rwith another our in reserve in case of poor weather or miscalculation.  Even using best the tech available (unaffordable) and favourable assumptions - it sinks under the weight of the required batteries.

 

An advantage of electric is that the torque allows you to swing a bigger prop at a lower speed and that means you get less prop slip. That means more thrust per prop-shaft kW.





Mike

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  Reply # 2101702 4-Oct-2018 19:22
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Boats are easy if you think outside the diesel/petrol powered box.  My boat used about 50 litres of diesel last season, and that included family week-long trips to the Coromandel and GBI from Auckland as well as several days and weekends out.  Also includes keeping the fridge and freezer cold and the water hot, and batteries charged.  Granted my average speed was about 12kph instead of Mike's 25kph, but I see boating as much about the journey as the destination


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  Reply # 2101770 4-Oct-2018 20:21
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I think I use about 20 litres of petrol in our boat a year.  Trailer yacht with 10hp outboard.  About this time of year I think about buying a bigger boat, then come to my senses.  It's getting harder, as yacht prices have gone through the floor so much it's tempting.  But nah - I can get the TY to Picton or Nelson at an average speed of about 40 knots, and get it to the lakes. 


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  Reply # 2101779 4-Oct-2018 20:29
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frednz: A friend has a launch that takes about 5000 litres of diesel and he goes through that every 2 months or so. And the marina is full of diesel guzzling boats. So what are we doing about them?

 

A friend of mine has built many large (+60ft) displacement hull launches.  At hull speed of ~10+ knots you can still get to places quite quickly, with modern turbo-diesels at cruise speed IIRC his own boat (about 70 ft) uses about 10 litres of diesel an hour at 12 knots.  It's a floating five star hotel - with low running cost.

 

If you want to go fast in a boat that size - then yep - you may as well get a helicopter.


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  Reply # 2101799 4-Oct-2018 20:57
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Dinga96:

 

So would anyone like to say when the Govt are going to pull the trigger and get the ev incentive wagons rolling yee haa.
He said soon but Jimmy Shaw was not very convincing when he was talking to Duncan Garner.My prediction for what its worth would be March ,its getting to late in the year now and the polititians will soon all be off on their well deserved break,bless em.

 

 

You'd want to wait until at least March before buying an EV anyway. That's when the Kia Niro EV is due to be launched, the new Leaf won't be far away, and the Kona may see a price drop when the huge waiting list starts to dissipate. 


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  Reply # 2101817 4-Oct-2018 21:25
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frednz:

I agree EVs are all about climate change but so are boats and aeroplanes to name but a few. A friend has a launch that takes about 5000 litres of diesel and he goes through that every 2 months or so. And the marina is full of diesel guzzling boats. So what are we doing about them? I think we should all go back to horses and carts and even then Greenies would complain that horses fart and leave piles of dung ..so perhaps we need to walk everywhere and give up travelling overseas. In other words cars are only a minor part of the problem. Consider cruise liners and aeroplanes for instance...they use masses of fuel every minute. Let's ban them right away!

 

Sorry, thats just a cop out. As is my PC, my vegetable seeds and nets I bought today, all of which incur emissions. Earth manages emissions, to a point. Might be easier of we ignore all that and emit as much as we can then in 100 years we can discuss what life is like underground for the 35 million of us left


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  Reply # 2101818 4-Oct-2018 21:29
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alasta:

 

Dinga96:

 

So would anyone like to say when the Govt are going to pull the trigger and get the ev incentive wagons rolling yee haa.
He said soon but Jimmy Shaw was not very convincing when he was talking to Duncan Garner.My prediction for what its worth would be March ,its getting to late in the year now and the polititians will soon all be off on their well deserved break,bless em.

 

 

You'd want to wait until at least March before buying an EV anyway. That's when the Kia Niro EV is due to be launched, the new Leaf won't be far away, and the Kona may see a price drop when the huge waiting list starts to dissipate. 

 

 

Agree. Right now its not an issue, there are RUC savings now. When opportunities arrive where we can buy an EV easily then the subsidies will kick in. Subsidies are not relevant until there is supply. Then we can argue over it


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  Reply # 2101884 5-Oct-2018 01:23
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Linuxluver:

Aredwood:

Except that Nissan will use their subsidies gained from selling Leafs, to allow themselves to keep on selling the Navara Diesel Ute. And Nissan would probably just nett out the costs over Leafs and Navaras.

If GM ever decide to start selling the Bolt EV here. They might see better value in using the subsidies to finally make RHD versions of their V8 yank tanks, and start selling them in NZ. Instead of just selling the subsidy rights.

Most likely, the relative pricing will change somewhat. But EV Utes won't suddenly appear.

Ironically, one of the selling points of those EV Utes to the Aussie mines. Is diesel Utes are suffering from lots of failures due to the mining usage patterns not allowing the particulate filters to regenerate. Although a nice EV use case, it is not typical use case for a Ute.

You have to be very careful, that any subsidies don't cause nasty unintended consequences. Look at the accommodation supplement as an example of that. It just makes rents more expensive. As planning rules stop landlords from increasing the supply of rental properties.


That's why you require them to sell a rising proportion of EV utes, as I said above. Ideally, a rational market where vehicle makers and buyers were apprised of the dangers presented by climate change would simply meet the requirement. This is where we are reminded how stupid markets really are.....and why regulation is needed. 

I agree with respect to the accomodation supplement. It's insane. But it's what you get when a particular government refuses to build affordable housing and be the landlord. The "market" was never, ever going to meet this need as the market insists on selling houses and apartments and the simple reality of life in NZ today is most people can't afford to buy anything all......so where do they live? National had no answer to that other than to feed cash to private landlords. Thanks. Ka-Ching. 

They should have built thousands of rental units - terraced, semi-detached, low, medium and high rise - and then maybe sell them off as entire buildings / complexes on the condition they remain rentals. 

That's how it's done in many countries....and works far better than what we have been doing. I've lived in apartments like that in Toronto....and they were where young people and the elderly went for housing because they were.......affordable. The answer has been obvious for 50 years. It's ideology that has befuddled the brains of certain political parties and gotten in the way. 

Ideology is a "distortion". Just get the job done. Usually the most practical means stands out like the dog's proverbials.....

In this case, it's simple. You have to strike a balance between utterly fair and very expensive or a not quite as fair, but a lot cheaper. Plus require car vendors to sell what you need them to sell. China does exactly this and the results are immediate and miraculous. 


 


 


 


 




The rental market is NOT a free market. You are missing the most important part of a free market. Which is that new players should be free to enter the market if they choose to do so.

I have enough space on my section to build some little rental units. The extra interest on my mortgage to fund the construction costs will be around $150 - 200 per week. But I will easily get $300 per week in rent. Plus some extra due to tax benefits. But council fees and compliance costs destroy the economics.

The council just makes the rules tougher and tougher. But they don't care about expensive rental costs or the resultant social problems. As that is central governments problem to deal with.

I'm currently involved with a job, which is converting the existing downstairs area of a house. (existing bedroom, bathroom and part of a garage) Into a self contained unit. The council went completely overboard with the ratings of the firewalls. Requiring a 2 hour fire rating, and 3 layers of 19mm fire rated gib board. Winstones said that they don't even have a fire rated system that needs 3 layers. Someone at the council just thinks that 3 layers is needed. Massive extra construction costs, for a building that would only take minutes to evacuate.

But all of the extra construction costs ultimately end up being paid by tenants. As marginal projects become uneconomic. So they therefore never happen. Landlords who are building new housing, are forced to provide only what the council want them to provide. Not what tenants want. While landlords who own existing houses are able to charge higher and higher rents, without needing to offer better quality housing to justify the higher rents.







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  Reply # 2101906 5-Oct-2018 08:27
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KrazyKid:

 

frednz:

I agree EVs are all about climate change

 

That is so untrue. My friend purchased a Leaf solely because it was cheaper to run on his commute. He is only driving a short commute each day and even then a cheap second had leaf made sense financially to him.

 

He didn't care about climate change when it came to that purchase, it was just the bottom line.

 

As a second car for around town driving a cheap EV makes sense no question.
In many cases (but not all) it makes sense as a first car.

 

Saying all that in NZ with our 80-90% renewable power an EV is is an excellent choice if you are concerned about climate change.

 

 

This thread is about Government incentives for buying EVs, so when I said EVs are "all about climate change", I meant that from the Government's viewpoint, the only reason they are prepared to give incentives to people to buy EVs is so that the Govt can meet its climate change objectives.

 

I agree that driving a cheap EV as a second car for around town driving makes sense provided that it's not too old and therefore getting closer to needing expensive battery refurbishment or replacement. The longer you hold a cheap second-hand EV, the more likely it is that any subsequent buyer will be looking carefully at the battery health and range issue.


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  Reply # 2101914 5-Oct-2018 08:40
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frednz:

 

 

 

This thread is about Government incentives for buying EVs, so when I said EVs are "all about climate change", I meant that from the Government's viewpoint, the only reason they are prepared to give incentives to people to buy EVs is so that the Govt can meet its climate change objectives.

 

I agree that driving a cheap EV as a second car for around town driving makes sense provided that it's not too old and therefore getting closer to needing expensive battery refurbishment or replacement. The longer you hold a cheap second-hand EV, the more likely it is that any subsequent buyer will be looking carefully at the battery health and range issue.

 

 

A cheap pre owned EV isnt that cheap, add to that the cost of owning also the ICE, that makes for an expensive pre owned EV. If you sold the ICE to help fund the EV that makes sense

 

EV's are not for everyone. Those that can manage the lesser range and/or when chargers are near enough, it can work for them.

 

 


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  Reply # 2101960 5-Oct-2018 09:42
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I'd love to drive an old classic converted for EV duty but there'd need to be more of an industry here to make that sort of thing affordable. 


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  Reply # 2102008 5-Oct-2018 09:59
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GV27:

 

I'd love to drive an old classic converted for EV duty but there'd need to be more of an industry here to make that sort of thing affordable. 

 

 

That would be great, and on the surface, not hard.

 

Change engine, I assume the EV will be smaller or at least not bigger. Throw transmission away. Adapt output drive to the CV or the diff. Find places tpo locate battery packs

 

Might come down to an unfair premium on the engine and batteries getting in the way.


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  Reply # 2102071 5-Oct-2018 11:27
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tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

I'd love to drive an old classic converted for EV duty but there'd need to be more of an industry here to make that sort of thing affordable. 

 

 

That would be great, and on the surface, not hard.

 

Change engine, I assume the EV will be smaller or at least not bigger. Throw transmission away. Adapt output drive to the CV or the diff. Find places tpo locate battery packs

 

Might come down to an unfair premium on the engine and batteries getting in the way.

 

 

Perhaps an exemption on GST on importing those parts would be a great way to stoke a cottage industry? 


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  Reply # 2102078 5-Oct-2018 11:35
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GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

I'd love to drive an old classic converted for EV duty but there'd need to be more of an industry here to make that sort of thing affordable. 

 

 

That would be great, and on the surface, not hard.

 

Change engine, I assume the EV will be smaller or at least not bigger. Throw transmission away. Adapt output drive to the CV or the diff. Find places tpo locate battery packs

 

Might come down to an unfair premium on the engine and batteries getting in the way.

 

 

Perhaps an exemption on GST on importing those parts would be a great way to stoke a cottage industry? 

 

 

Why not and exactly. The Govts are not supporting the EV makers, although thats the end effect, they are supporting EV, so any incentive is on the table. If there was a cash incentive of say $10k, the figure bandied about, why not include licensed and authorised converters? Perfect. Cheaper entry. Its not like a Cortina to 350 V8 conversions of yesteryear where its an effort and then you have to reinforce the chassis, it should be relatively an easier conversion




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  Reply # 2102234 5-Oct-2018 15:53
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https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12137117

 

Extracts from the above article dated 5 October 2018, by Thomas Anderson and Jonathan Boston:

 

Our domestic climate change policy is at a critical stage. The Productivity Commission has released its final report on a "Low-emissions Economy" and the Government will publish its Zero Carbon Bill this year. As the commission's report highlights, curbing transport emissions will be essential for any successful decarbonisation strategy.

 

… a faster option would be a "feebate" scheme. New or newly-imported low-emissions vehicles would receive a rebate on registration.

 

The tax revenue loss would be offset by a fee added to the cost of new higher-emissions vehicles. We'd bring down the cost of low-emissions vehicles and raise the price of high-emissions ones.

 

The commission favours such a scheme, for good reason. It would help ensure anyone buying high-emissions vehicles, whether new or second-hand imports, pays some of the environmental costs. It would achieve environmental benefits without additional costs on taxpayers. And a feebate scheme could be implemented quickly.

 

Politically, too, such a scheme is more attractive than some of the other ways of discouraging emissions, such as dramatically higher fuel prices.

 

This idea is not new and has been discussed in this thread, but do you think that that something along these lines is likely to be implemented?

 

The final report (August 2018) of the Productivity Commission on a "Low-emissions economy" can be seen here.

 

 

 

 


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