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  Reply # 2102288 5-Oct-2018 19:44
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It is good in principle. But have they considered that existing ICE cars will go up in valve as a result. And there will also be a social cost due to more older cars on the road.

I'm opposed to the above. But only because there are cheaper and easier ways to reduce carbon emissions. The only important thing is that carbon emissions are reduced. Therefore whatever method gets the required reductions for the lowest cost should be used.







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  Reply # 2102438 6-Oct-2018 10:05
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https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12137600

 

The above article is titled "Green Co-Leader James Shaw has 'whole stack' of options to get Kiwis into electric cars"

 

From the above article:

 

The Government is poised to announce a raft of new initiatives to help get more Kiwis behind the wheel of electric cars (EVs).

 

This could potentially include swapping out the Government's fleet of petrol cars for EVs, Climate Change and Acting Associate Transport Minister James Shaw said.

 

Speaking to the Herald, Shaw said he would be announcing the Government's EV working programme in about a month.

 

He has a "whole stack" of policy options which he hopes would make EVs more attractive to consumers and make them more cost competitive compared to conventional petrol cars.

 

…  "We're also examining the Productivity Commission's proposal for a feebates scheme – which lowers the upfront cost of EVs and makes them competitive with internal combustion engine cars."

 

This would mean highly emitting combustion vehicles would be penalised by having to pay higher registration fees.

 

It's interesting to see that we only have to wait "about a month" to find out what the Government's incentives are going to be. So, it's not a good idea to order a new EV before these incentives have been announced!

 

I wonder how long it would take to "swap out the Government's fleet of petrol cars for EVs"? I hope the Government can negotiate substantial discounts because the price of new EVs is way above what they've ever paid for "equivalent" petrol cars!

 

And I hope someone has told James Shaw that EVs need charging up and that the national charging network will need to be expanded urgently! What will be the range of the EVs that James Shaw is expecting the Government to buy, and will this range be satisfactory? Does he realise that it takes a lot longer to charge up an EV than it does to refill a car with petrol?


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  Reply # 2102439 6-Oct-2018 10:16
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frednz:

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12137600

 

The above article is titled "Green Co-Leader James Shaw has 'whole stack' of options to get Kiwis into electric cars"

 

From the above article:

 

The Government is poised to announce a raft of new initiatives to help get more Kiwis behind the wheel of electric cars (EVs).

 

This could potentially include swapping out the Government's fleet of petrol cars for EVs, Climate Change and Acting Associate Transport Minister James Shaw said.

 

Speaking to the Herald, Shaw said he would be announcing the Government's EV working programme in about a month.

 

He has a "whole stack" of policy options which he hopes would make EVs more attractive to consumers and make them more cost competitive compared to conventional petrol cars.

 

…  "We're also examining the Productivity Commission's proposal for a feebates scheme – which lowers the upfront cost of EVs and makes them competitive with internal combustion engine cars."

 

This would mean highly emitting combustion vehicles would be penalised by having to pay higher registration fees.

 

It's interesting to see that we only have to wait "about a month" to find out what the Government's incentives are going to be. So, it's not a good idea to order a new EV before these incentives have been announced!

 

I wonder how long it would take to "swap out the Government's fleet of petrol cars for EVs"? I hope the Government can negotiate substantial discounts because the price of new EVs is way above what they've ever paid for "equivalent" petrol cars!

 

 

About a month seems ok to me. Its only an announcement, and it wont come into play quickly as there is a limited supply of models and volume. Although it might, just be a low uptake for those reasons. It looks like many incentives, including an upfront handout. 

 

Re Govt, they have the money. Cheaper running costs, cheaper to maintain. Ultimately the cheaper running costs will ramp down as RUC is incorporated into EV's once they hit a threshold. About 70c per litre I think? 

 

Im quietly wondering and hoping they might include a Solar PV offer. That can help some users to get even cheaper "fuel", and also contribute to the grid (although I know now that's pretty minuscule) and add to our green image. 

 

Are Chinese EV's liable to get here? All I know is the Great Wall is Chinese, so assume maybe an option. 


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  Reply # 2102441 6-Oct-2018 10:18
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frednz:

 

 

 

And I hope someone has told James Shaw that EVs need charging up and that the national charging network will need to be expanded urgently! What will be the range of the EVs that James Shaw is expecting the Government to buy, and will this range be satisfactory? Does he realise that it takes a lot longer to charge up an EV than it does to refill a car with petrol?

 

 

An EV wont suit everyone. For many it will be 100% compatible. And that map shows coverage is already pretty darn good. So, IMHO, I feel the charging network right now covers many people, but not all. 


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  Reply # 2102470 6-Oct-2018 12:32
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frednz:

 

And I hope someone has told James Shaw that EVs need charging up and that the national charging network will need to be expanded urgently

 

My former (I retired last month) government employer is moving into a new building next year.

 

When I asked the "New Building Project" folks what provision they were making for charging up EVs in the garaging and parking areas, I got the blank stare of incomprehension. And when I pointed out that the previous government - not the green-tinged current mob - had set a target of 33% EVs by 2021 for government organisations* and the new(ish) government is bound to, the incomprehension began to be overlayed with a teeny weeny trace of panic.
No, no provisions of any kind for electricity distribution in the garages or in the car park.

 

 

 

So, it's not just the "national charging network" that needs beefing up

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* "The National Party has pledged one in three cars in the Government's fleet will be electric by 2021" https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/95721059/national-announce-new-electric-vehicle-target-for-government-fleet

 

 


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  Reply # 2102512 6-Oct-2018 14:09
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tdgeek:

 

About a month seems ok to me. Its only an announcement, and it wont come into play quickly as there is a limited supply of models and volume. Although it might, just be a low uptake for those reasons. It looks like many incentives, including an upfront handout. 

 

 

It depends on what it covers. If PHEVs are captured in the incentive then supply is less of an issue - there are a number of options available such as the Mitsubishi Outlander, Kia Niro and Hyundai Ioniq.




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  Reply # 2103571 8-Oct-2018 21:26
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alasta:

 

tdgeek:

 

About a month seems ok to me. Its only an announcement, and it wont come into play quickly as there is a limited supply of models and volume. Although it might, just be a low uptake for those reasons. It looks like many incentives, including an upfront handout. 

 

 

It depends on what it covers. If PHEVs are captured in the incentive then supply is less of an issue - there are a number of options available such as the Mitsubishi Outlander, Kia Niro and Hyundai Ioniq.

 

 

I agree, but don't you think it would be a bit of a cop-out if the Government were to buy lots of PHEVs instead of "pure electric" EVs?

 

Buying PHEVs might tick a few boxes for the Government, but will they really help us meet our climate control objectives if a lot of the driving can still be fuelled by petrol?


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2106829 12-Oct-2018 15:37
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frednz: And I hope someone has told James Shaw that EVs need charging up and that the national charging network will need to be expanded urgently!

 

While it is true that in increase in EV's on the road will need to go hand in hand with charging network upgrades, this is not the big issue many people think it is.

 

80% of EV's are charged at home (or on the premises) 80% of the time. A regular 3 pin plug is all that is usually is required, so again, not a drama. This means that in future we won't need as many charging stations as we have petrol stations. Almost every house/workplace will be/already is a fuel station.

 

 

frednz: Does he realise that it takes a lot longer to charge up an EV than it does to refill a car with petrol?

 

Again, this is not the issue many people imagine it to be. Because 80% of EV's are charged overnight, they are starting each and every day with a full tank, so there is no waiting as such for it to fill like you wait for petrol to fill. This is also why an EV with 1/2 or 1/4 of the range of a petrol car is not an impediment to the majority of drivers.

 

If you transpose petrol car refuelling strategies onto EV's you're going to get a distorted and incorrect view of how EV's operate.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2106858 12-Oct-2018 16:44
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frednz:

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12137600

 

The above article is titled "Green Co-Leader James Shaw has 'whole stack' of options to get Kiwis into electric cars"

 

From the above article:

 

The Government is poised to announce a raft of new initiatives to help get more Kiwis behind the wheel of electric cars (EVs).

 

This could potentially include swapping out the Government's fleet of petrol cars for EVs, Climate Change and Acting Associate Transport Minister James Shaw said.

 

Speaking to the Herald, Shaw said he would be announcing the Government's EV working programme in about a month.

 

He has a "whole stack" of policy options which he hopes would make EVs more attractive to consumers and make them more cost competitive compared to conventional petrol cars.

 

…  "We're also examining the Productivity Commission's proposal for a feebates scheme – which lowers the upfront cost of EVs and makes them competitive with internal combustion engine cars."

 

This would mean highly emitting combustion vehicles would be penalised by having to pay higher registration fees.

 

It's interesting to see that we only have to wait "about a month" to find out what the Government's incentives are going to be. So, it's not a good idea to order a new EV before these incentives have been announced!

 

I wonder how long it would take to "swap out the Government's fleet of petrol cars for EVs"? I hope the Government can negotiate substantial discounts because the price of new EVs is way above what they've ever paid for "equivalent" petrol cars!

 

And I hope someone has told James Shaw that EVs need charging up and that the national charging network will need to be expanded urgently! What will be the range of the EVs that James Shaw is expecting the Government to buy, and will this range be satisfactory? Does he realise that it takes a lot longer to charge up an EV than it does to refill a car with petrol?

 



The Productivity Commission's feebate scheme seemed to say the incentive should go to the importer. I'd be concerned they would just pocket it......so I'm interested in more detail there. 

I think Shaw is looking for a reaction here. People with an interest should write to their MP(s). 

The government gets good discounts on EVs already....on the order of 20%.

Most EVs charge at home or work. I have done 621 fast charges in NZ and had to wait maybe 10 times......if that.  


 





____________________________________________________
I'm on a high fibre diet. 

 

High fibre diet


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  Reply # 2106870 12-Oct-2018 17:09
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I did wonder if something along the lines of California's ZEV regulations which require a certain percentage of new car sales have to be zero emission vehicles for companies to sell any new vehicles.
However NZ's market is so small manufacturers would probably say "Okay we won't bother selling new vehicles in NZ."
From what I have read, the above regulation does produce some pretty useless EVs (looking at you Ford) but at least there is a greater variety on offer.
For NZ to do this, Australia would need to do it as well, to make a RHD viable for this corner of the world.




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  Reply # 2107035 12-Oct-2018 22:17
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Allow LHD EVs to be imported. Both brand new and secondhand. Then we can get the Tesla Model 3, Chevy Volt, for a start. And it would open up whole new secondhand markets to choose from.

James Shaw from the Green party says that he wants to flood NZ with secondhand EVs.

https://www.nbr.co.nz/story/shaw-proposes-flooding-market-evs

Although that article doesn't say how he proposes to achieve his goal. He Only talks about fuel efficiency standards for ICE vehicles. And he says that secondhand EVs are a good way of avoiding high petrol prices. And other comments around people who buy cheap ICE cars not considering the cheaper running costs of an EV. So nothing that everyone on GZ doesn't already know.

Allowing LHD imports is the only method I can think of apart from large cash subsidies.





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  Reply # 2107058 13-Oct-2018 00:42
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Regarding the LHD thing, we could tweak the requirements for imports under Category A: special interest LHD vehicles.

It does seem counter productive that I can import a gas guzzling Dodge Challenger hellcat, or a relatively vanilla cameo, but cannot import a chevy bolt/volt / Spark EV, fiat 500e, or second generation Rav 4 EV. All cars listed are low(ish) volume supermodels that are special in their own way, but the EV's don't tick the coupe or performance boxes...

That said, the Cat A permits are caped at 500 a year, so while it would be cool to see the odd chevy bolt, that's not really a way to flood the market.

 

------------------------

 


I don't think that fully allowing LHD EV's would be a great idea (even if we restricted it to models not available in RHD). It's generally accepted that RHD cars are better for driving on the left hand side of the road. Also things like the requirement to swap headlights out would add cost. Also note the NZ has settled on dual head public chargers with Chademo and CCS type 2 plugs. This suits our current fleet (works for used imports from japan & UK + NZ new cars). Note that USA market cars such as the chevy bolt have CCS type 1 connectors that are physically in-compatible with ccs type 2.

-------------------------

Regarding flooding the market with used LHD ev's, this is kinda tricky. (I havn't read the article due to paywall).

Firstly we are currently flying under the radar with japan and UK imports, in that the respective governments heavily (cira $10,000) subsidies electric vehicles, but place no restrictions to prevent these subsidised cars from being exported... If we crank up the volume, and have government ministers making statements about flooding the NZ market, it is likely that they Japan and UK governments will work out we are milking it, and take steps to retain the cheap used EV's for their own citizens.

Secondly there are serious issues about the scaleability of the currently popular used import EV's.

Japan is the obvious market to turn to but ev's arn't super popular in that market. Only the 2018 year was a record high at 18,000 EV's. Obviously we can't buy all their used cars as many owners will not wish to sell them, also other third world markets compete with us for japans used cars. If we try to buy heaps, we will bid up their prices a lot.

https://www.transport.govt.nz/resources/vehicle-fleet-statistics/monthly-electric-and-hybrid-light-vehicle-registrations-2/

NZ in September imported 20,000 cars and light commercials. (1 month). if we could buy up 1/4 of japans new EV sales as used cars (unrealistic I think), that would only work out to 2% of our vehicle imports.


Imports from the UK arn't as ideal. Firstly the distance is far, so shipping is very slow and expensive. Also, it is not a good market to import cheaper cars from. VAT runs at 20%, and kills the economics, unless you buy "Vat Qualified" cars. These are either new, or have been owned by a business for under two years. As such most cars that come out of the UK are modern, and high spec, not your $15k 2011 Nissan leaf's.

Dingbatt: I did wonder if something along the lines of California's ZEV regulations which require a certain percentage of new car sales have to be zero emission vehicles for companies to sell any new vehicles.
However NZ's market is so small manufacturers would probably say "Okay we won't bother selling new vehicles in NZ."
From what I have read, the above regulation does produce some pretty useless EVs (looking at you Ford) but at least there is a greater variety on offer.
For NZ to do this, Australia would need to do it as well, to make a RHD viable for this corner of the world.


This would be interesting. The California scheme initially applied only to large volume manufactures (I think they now extended it to medium volume). As such it doesn't shut small niche specialists (Lamborghini, astern marten) out of the market.

Also the penalty for failure doesn't have to be exclusion from the market, it can be a financial penalty, or we could allow Zero emissions vehicle credits to be sold by companies with excess (EV specialists like tesla) to companies that chose not to run an EV program.

It would definitely drive some action, Brands that sell over 1900 passenger cars a year below:

 

  • Brands already offering EV's would be fine but may need to step up volume:

     

    • Hyundai - (rob fine as is.
    • VW - likely would need to cross subsidise e-golf to boost volume
    • BMW - Given the i3 is going to loose it's Rex option outside USA and japan with the next gen (42kWh battery), likely would be fine
  • Brands not offering EV's in NZ but have something available

     

    • Audi - Audi Etron SUV will likely be available by the time laws take effect. (it's in production, deliveries expected in 2019
    • Ford - Bring in the ford focus electric (available in UK with RHD), cross subsise a lot as it kinda sucks.
    • Mercadies - Bring in RHD B-Class electric drive from UK, Cross subsidise a lot as it won't sell well as it lacks fast charging. Perhaps launch smart brand in NZ, and used credits from smart EV's (fortwo & forfour) to sell merc's. Push for allocation of new EQC SUV when that becomes available. 
    • Nissan - Relaunch Nissan leaf in NZ, launch e-nv200.
    • Kia - Bring in Kia soul EV (available in RHD in uk now), cross subsidise
  • Brands not offering EV's in NZ, and noting that suitable

     

    • Holden - Add pressure to General motors to produce a RHD Bolt. If that fails, pay fines, or pull out of NZ market. Perhaps consider getting waklenshaw or similar to do RHD conversions of a bolts, although they may struggle to even get an allocation to do that.
    • Honda - Either pay fines untill the honda urban EV is launched (sposed to be next year), or bring in the clarity, and build some hydrogen stations.
    • Mazda - Pull out of NZ market or pay fines untill ZEV's are available. (they are basically building one to appease California and it should be ready next year)
    • Subaru - Nothing coming until 2021. Pay fines or withdraw from NZ
    • Suzuki - Nothing coming untill 2020 - 2021, and then only for the india market. Pay fines or withdraw from NZ
    • Toyota - Launch their hydrogen car, plus build stations. Otherwise pay fines untill their EV's come online in eairly 2020's
    • Mitsubishi. Pay fines or pull out of NZ. Beg goverment to let their popular plug in hybrid cound as a half or quarter point on the ZEV scale.

Of course we could make it way easier if we allowed plug in hybrids.


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  Reply # 2107138 13-Oct-2018 09:03
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Scott3:

Of course we could make it way easier if we allowed plug in hybrids.



And this could be the bridge that allows the pace of adoption to increase.
Done carefully, by specifying a minimum battery-only range, it would allow manufacturers such as Mitsubishi and Toyota to meet their requirements. While not 'pure' EVs they are at least a step in the right direction. Set the minimum battery only range at close to the average daily commute (perhaps 50km).
Unfortunately James Shaw's talk but no action at the moment has been counterproductive. Making me put off any purchase decision until at least next year.




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  Reply # 2107187 13-Oct-2018 10:26
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Dingbatt:
Scott3:

 

Of course we could make it way easier if we allowed plug in hybrids.

 



And this could be the bridge that allows the pace of adoption to increase.
Done carefully, by specifying a minimum battery-only range, it would allow manufacturers such as Mitsubishi and Toyota to meet their requirements. While not 'pure' EVs they are at least a step in the right direction. Set the minimum battery only range at close to the average daily commute (perhaps 50km).
Unfortunately James Shaw's talk but no action at the moment has been counterproductive. Making me put off any purchase decision until at least next year.


I read up some more on the California Zero Emissions Mandate. It counts PHEV's, but requires a minimum portion to be made up of proper zero emissions vehicles (pure electric vehicle or hydrogen fuel cell). Cars are assigned points based on capabilities. Manufactures (such as tesla) can sell their excess credit to automakers that are dragging the chain like toyota, subaru, mazda.

 

 

In 2018 the ZEV Credit Percentage requirement is 4.5% of all vehicles sold by a manufacturer. For Large Vehicle Manufacturers, 45% of these credits must come from vehicles that California considers Zero Emission Vehicles. This means Battery Electric (BEV) and Fuel Cell (HFCV). The remaining 55% can be earned primarily from other electrified vehicles such as Plug-In Hybrids (PHEV).



We need to be very careful about incentive's PHEV's. There a a lot of cases in the UK (and some in NZ) where companies have purchased Outlander Plug in hybrids (54km pure electric range), either due to tax incentives, or to promote a green image. When issued to a staff member, under typical company car systems, they are supplied with a fuel card. Typical outcome is that the car never gets pluged in at home (fuel is free to employee, but power is not. Also a convenient plug in location may not exist). Without further effort from the company (i.e install metered EV charge point at employees house, and offer to reimburse power), the car is ineffective at reducing emissions.

I have sat next to one of Air NZ's BMW i3 cars in traffic which (despite 100% electric signage) had it's petrol range extender audibly running. While it could have just been out for a 130km trip, or running it's two monthly maintenance fuel burn, I really doubt it. Note that the i3 is fairly inefficient using the REX. A prius would use half the fuel... As such, we really need the cars to be actually plugged in to make environmental gains.

----------------

You are right about the pre-announcement announcement by James Shaw.

The hint of looming potential purchase incentives, will sure cause people at the margins to put off EV purchases, working exactly against the programs goals. Spose it maximizes political exposure though....

That said (with the cheaper end of the used market), current fuel price hike hysteria seems to have the industry run off it's feet anyway.


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  Reply # 2107585 14-Oct-2018 10:38
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Scott3: .

That said (with the cheaper end of the used market), current fuel price hike hysteria seems to have the industry run off it's feet anyway.



I have been monitoring the prices for the last six months or so and watched the cost of second hand LEAFs creep up by $3-5000 (at least on the sticker), particularly of late.
Assuming incentives, beyond RUCs, will only apply to new vehicles, then it will be interesting to see what happens to the RRP of already announced vehicles at that time.
As far as the PHEV company car argument goes, it surely would be up to the company concerned to monitor fuel usage for kms travelled, unless the vehicle has been bought for 'greenwashing' reasons.

Perhaps some of the extra GST collected from the increased price of fuel, that at the moment goes into the consolidated fund, could be used to offer interest free loans towards the purchase of a new EV? That, plus a GST rebate on the cost of an EV may be enough incentive to get a few more people across the line. Maybe even allow depreciation on an EV to be tax deductible for private citizens.
Once there is little financial penalty in buying an EV over an ICE the uptake should increase.




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