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  # 2230177 3-May-2019 14:53
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I'm expecting the model three standard plus to be around $65k when it arrives here. So cheaper than a top model Prius and leaf. So not $200k.

Also the other vehicles in the Tesla lineup do not have inflated purchase prices due to EV incentives. I still see no justification for people here to think prices are inflated.

Happy to he proven wrong.

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  # 2230211 3-May-2019 15:13
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jjnz1: What's the reasoning around the purchase price being inflated due to a subsidy. It hasn't in other countries like EU, Canada and the US. (source Tesla Pricing)

Telsa in fact has just reduced their vehicle cost in Canada so their purchasers are eligible for the EV subsidy.

 

yeah, but they don't want anyone to actually buy their sub 45K car ..... :)

 

They have limited the range to 150km and apparently won't allow future upgrading....

 

https://electrek.co/2019/05/02/tesla-model-3-range-upgrade-canada/

 

But because they are selling one model under 45K,  they are eligible for subsidies on the regular model 3 that is just under the 55K top end of eligibility....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2230218 3-May-2019 15:18
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jjnz1: I'm expecting the model three standard plus to be around $65k when it arrives here. So cheaper than a top model Prius and leaf. So not $200k.

 

Yip,

 

in terms of volume manufacturers, I'm expecting both the new Leaf and model 3 to both be in the 60-65K bracket and pretty much become the go to models for fleet or any other volume buyers,  Nissan may have an edge as it appears service and support will be rolled out across its nation wide dealer network, while Tesla only have a physical service presence in Auckland.

 

Hopefully the second half of 2019 is a good one for the sales of new" EVs in NZ,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  # 2230228 3-May-2019 15:32
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GV27: I'll remember that when I'm filling up a 20 year Corolla showing 300,000km+ with petrol that has about an extra 50% on top in the form of tax that the guy cruising past in a $200K Tesla needed that subsidy more. You know, for the greater good. After all, they're apparently subsidising me, somehow. 

 

Did you buy that corolla new? If not, then someone else did subsidise your purchase of it by sparing you from a fairly hefty chunk of the initial depreciation. Here is something else to think about the next time you are filling up: did you ever consider that you are actually subsidising drivers of brand new corollas because they get better fuel economy so pay less fuel tax for the same road usage? You are also subsiding heavy trucks because the road user charge system under charges trucks under the pretext of socialism (did you realise your petrol bill subsidises your supermarket purchases?). 

 

The greater good is that instead of filling the sky with carbon with a purchase of fuel, most likely (60% chance) financing a dictatorship somewhere you wouldn't want to live, put into a car lacking modern safety features and with eroded safety due to wear & tear, and never knowing how much you are going pay for the fuel because of 'international volatility', you could in 3 years time be driving a used/affordable car, of more up to date safety features,with low carbon emissions, fuelled by energy produced in a country you do actually live in and fuel produced by fellow kiwis paid a fair wage who have a right to vote in elections, and of a stable price unaffected by religions wars in a far-away land?

 

Not saying, just saying.


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  # 2230231 3-May-2019 15:35
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jjnz1:  So not $200k.

 

Clearly this was referring to the top-spec Model S...


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  # 2230238 3-May-2019 15:42
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You should be happy that you and the previous owners of your Corolla have contributed at least $14400.00* towards the road that the Tesla is driving on. The Tesla is probably a corporate vehicle too and got tax breaks as well.

* (Assuming 8l/100km and an average of $0.60/l excise in the last 20 years. Although not all the excise was originally spent roads.)




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  # 2230241 3-May-2019 15:50
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tripper1000:

 

GV27: I'll remember that when I'm filling up a 20 year Corolla showing 300,000km+ with petrol that has about an extra 50% on top in the form of tax that the guy cruising past in a $200K Tesla needed that subsidy more. You know, for the greater good. After all, they're apparently subsidising me, somehow. 

 

Did you buy that corolla new? If not, then someone else did subsidise your purchase of it by sparing you from a fairly hefty chunk of the initial depreciation. Here is something else to think about the next time you are filling up: did you ever consider that you are actually subsidising drivers of brand new corollas because they get better fuel economy so pay less fuel tax for the same road usage? You are also subsiding heavy trucks because the road user charge system under charges trucks under the pretext of socialism (did you realise your petrol bill subsidises your supermarket purchases?). 

 

The greater good is that instead of filling the sky with carbon with a purchase of fuel, most likely (60% chance) financing a dictatorship somewhere you wouldn't want to live, put into a car lacking modern safety features and with eroded safety due to wear & tear, and never knowing how much you are going pay for the fuel because of 'international volatility', you could in 3 years time be driving a used/affordable car, of more up to date safety features,with low carbon emissions, fuelled by energy produced in a country you do actually live in and fuel produced by fellow kiwis paid a fair wage who have a right to vote in elections, and of a stable price unaffected by religions wars in a far-away land?

 

Not saying, just saying.

 

 

Sorry, I forgot to stand for the national anthem towards the end there. 

 

As for depreciation being a 'subsidy' for future purchases... well....yea. Can't say I've seen that argument before. 


 
 
 
 


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  # 2230305 3-May-2019 16:31
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GV27:

jjnz1:  So not $200k.


Clearly this was referring to the top-spec Model S...



Yes you and I know that, but you can't assume other readers do.

Those kind of comments can potentially add fuel to the fire that is Tesla's are only for the rich. That is definitely not the case, especially if NZ Government contributes a nice fat incentive such as no GST and a tax break on the purchase..

Tesla model 3 $65k
GST subsidy $8.5k
Tax (free) subsidy $15,800 (calculated @ 28%)

Total car cost $40,695

Car benefits
Safest car in world
62kwh battery obtaining 386kms
Cost to fill $4.87 (Merdian EV plan @ 7.86 kwh)

Car and motors designed for 1 million miles
Battery in 2020 due to be released designed for 1 million miles
Autopilot
All know safety upgrades (known to the automotive market)

Cost per month over 5 years with $10k deposit $565 month at 3.99% or $414 with $10k balloon payment.

Petrol savings (me personally)
Cost to fill EV every month $15.13 (1200kms)

Less Cost to fill ICE tank every month $240 (1200kms)
Savings: $224

Total monthly cost $340 or $189 with balloon payment.

Now that doesn't take into account maintenance either. Tesla's have been known to have brake pads last 200000kms+.

$189 per month is within reach of a lot of people IMO. especially for the world's safest car.

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  # 2231049 5-May-2019 09:47
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tripper1000:

 

GV27: I'll remember that when I'm filling up a 20 year Corolla showing 300,000km+ with petrol that has about an extra 50% on top in the form of tax that the guy cruising past in a $200K Tesla needed that subsidy more. You know, for the greater good. After all, they're apparently subsidising me, somehow. 

 

Did you buy that corolla new? If not, then someone else did subsidise your purchase of it by sparing you from a fairly hefty chunk of the initial depreciation. Here is something else to think about the next time you are filling up: did you ever consider that you are actually subsidising drivers of brand new corollas because they get better fuel economy so pay less fuel tax for the same road usage? You are also subsiding heavy trucks because the road user charge system under charges trucks under the pretext of socialism (did you realise your petrol bill subsidises your supermarket purchases?). 

 

 

You've made up a whole lot of non-existent transfers. If you buy a second-hand Corolla then the depreciation incurred by the first owner involves no transfer to (or from) the next owner.

 

You're also misusing the term subsidy. A private buyer of second-hand a motor vehicle cannot, by definition, be subsidising the original owner. Nor can a private tax payer be subsidising other tax payers.


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  # 2231078 5-May-2019 10:54
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jjnz1:
GV27:

 

jjnz1:  So not $200k.

 

Clearly this was referring to the top-spec Model S...

 



Yes you and I know that, but you can't assume other readers do.

Those kind of comments can potentially add fuel to the fire that is Tesla's are only for the rich. That is definitely not the case, especially if NZ Government contributes a nice fat incentive such as no GST and a tax break on the purchase..

Tesla model 3 $65k
GST subsidy $8.5k
Tax (free) subsidy $15,800 (calculated @ 28%)

Total car cost $40,695

Car benefits
Safest car in world
62kwh battery obtaining 386kms
Cost to fill $4.87 (Merdian EV plan @ 7.86 kwh)

Car and motors designed for 1 million miles
Battery in 2020 due to be released designed for 1 million miles
Autopilot
All know safety upgrades (known to the automotive market)

Cost per month over 5 years with $10k deposit $565 month at 3.99% or $414 with $10k balloon payment.

Petrol savings (me personally)
Cost to fill EV every month $15.13 (1200kms)

Less Cost to fill ICE tank every month $240 (1200kms)
Savings: $224

Total monthly cost $340 or $189 with balloon payment.

Now that doesn't take into account maintenance either. Tesla's have been known to have brake pads last 200000kms+.

$189 per month is within reach of a lot of people IMO. especially for the world's safest car.

 

Assuming:

 

1) You never incur RUC

 

2) Power demand doesn't get managed to account for the increase demand from the sudden uptake of these 'affordable' EVs.

 

3) The regulatory environment actually allows full autopilot at some point, the cost of which is effectively dead money until that happens. Considering how much hassle we're having with consumer drones, I'm not super optimistic. 

 

4) No GST AND a tax break on the purchase? So two subsidies? Or as you call them, 'fat incentives'. 

 

So if I understand this correctly, we're going to take money from....somewhere...to give 'fat incentives' in the forms of multiple tax breaks, to cars which aren't going to pay to use the road, in a low wage economy, massive house prices and rental shortages, and "only" add an extra $189 per month plus whatever additional taxes needed to pay for the "fat incentives" and then at the end of a lease period, there's going to be a massive balloon payment? 

 

You wouldn't happen to run a payday lending company, would you? 


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  # 2231164 5-May-2019 14:46
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GV27:

 

1) You never incur RUC

 

 

Exempt until at least 2021, saving on average $600pa

 

 

2) Power demand doesn't get managed to account for the increase demand from the sudden uptake of these 'affordable' EVs.

 

 

If you read Transpower's board reports and their strategy documents they have been preparing for this for while. 

 

 

 

3) The regulatory environment actually allows full autopilot at some point, the cost of which is effectively dead money until that happens. Considering how much hassle we're having with consumer drones, I'm not super optimistic. 

 

 

Autopilot (which is included) is different to full autonomy (which isn't). I agree there will be some hurdles however there is plenty of substantiation on H&S benefits on autonomous driving. I am picking by the end of next year insurance companies will be providing significant discounts to autonomous vehicles as they are exponentially more safer than a human. As long as people don't associate autonomous vehicles with 'computer type' reliability, and they accept that there will be accidents and fatalities, but at at rate far less than human drivers, Governments will be quick to get on board.

 

 

 

4) No GST AND a tax break on the purchase? So two subsidies? Or as you call them, 'fat incentives'. 

 

So if I understand this correctly, we're going to take money from....somewhere...to give 'fat incentives' in the forms of multiple tax breaks, to cars which aren't going to pay to use the road, in a low wage economy, massive house prices and rental shortages, and "only" add an extra $189 per month plus whatever additional taxes needed to pay for the "fat incentives" and then at the end of a lease period, there's going to be a massive balloon payment? 

 

 

Re GST: if the car wasn't purchased, no GST would be payable. So this subsidy wouldn't cost the Government.

 

Re income tax subsidy: yes the Government would have to provide a tax credit against ones income.

 

NZ has a similar scheme in practice now, its called Novated Leases. This is where you can purchase/lease a vehicle tax free through your employer. And because it is called as a business vehicle, the GST on purchase/lease and maintenance costs can be claimed back.

 

 

You wouldn't happen to run a payday lending company, would you? 

 

 

No, typical family man with a typical 9-5 office job.


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  # 2231360 6-May-2019 07:53
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jjnz1:

 

 

 

Re GST: if the car wasn't purchased, no GST would be payable. So this subsidy wouldn't cost the Government.

 

 

 

NZ has a similar scheme in practice now, its called Novated Leases. This is where you can purchase/lease a vehicle tax free through your employer. And because it is called as a business vehicle, the GST on purchase/lease and maintenance costs can be claimed back.

 

 

If this EV car wasnt purchased, another car would be or another product, so GST would be payable.

 

Novated leases are company cars, so the "consumer" recieves this as part of his/her salary, so the expenses can be claimed back, just as they are with another version of providing a company car

 

As for the other suggestions, I'm on GV27's side.

 

How many EV's would NZ consumers need to take up, to make  an excellent difference to our emmissons?

 

 


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  # 2231372 6-May-2019 08:50
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tdgeek:

 

How many EV's would NZ consumers need to take up, to make  an excellent difference to our emissions?

 

 

Wow. We have to start somewhere though right?

 

 

 

I see a few things NZ needs to solve:

 

1. introduce green initiatives to stop global warming  

 

2. to improve NZ's really bad injury and fatality rate on our roads 

 

3. to ensure not only the rich can benefit from the above two things

 

 

 

1. Every little bit counts towards stopping global warming - even if NZ does not make a meaningful difference in 2019 or 2020 to our level of emissions, maybe other countries with bigger populations will look towards NZ who are leading the way, and this may impact their decisions to model what NZ is doing. (There have been plenty of cases where NZ influences the rest of the world). The entire world is in this together right - that is if you believe in climate change.

 

2. NZ has a really really bad road toll and injury rate. Are our roads bad? Maybe. Are our drivers not properly educated? Potentially. Do we have one of the oldest fleets in the OECD? Yes. Lets try and improve one of these factors by making it affordable for low income families to purchase new safe vehicles, that also help clean our environment and dramatically lower the cost to ACC.

 

3. I have family at both ends of the spectrum, some who can afford brand new cars every 2-3 years without subsidies, and some who rely on $5000 cars from dealers at 18% interest over 3 years - that is $181 per month!

 

A $5000 car from a dealer is not safe, in my experience requires a lot of maintenance in order to keep a WOF (which is why they don't bother getting a WOF at all and just rack up fines), is very inefficient and costs a lot in petrol (leading to drive offs), and sometimes their kids just stay at home from school because they don't have enough money to get petrol (despite constant WINZ handouts)

 

For the same money this family could* get into a safe EV, subsidized by the Government, WINZ could still provide petrol money relief, but in the from of power bill relief, ACC costs would plummet as our NZ vehicle fleet would become newer over time - is this not a win win? 

 

Yes a subsidy will benefit the rich, but it can be more beneficial for low income earners too. It is about how it is implemented.

 

 

 

*I am not recommending the best way forward is to rack up a $40k debt, but it does give you an idea of what is possible, and there maybe is a solution in there somewhere to get these cars into the hands of low income users too!


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  # 2231377 6-May-2019 09:03
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jjnz1:

 

tdgeek:

 

How many EV's would NZ consumers need to take up, to make  an excellent difference to our emissions?

 

 

Wow. We have to start somewhere though right?

 

 

 

 

No need to say wow. Why say that?? I asked a VERY simple question, but you wont answer

 

You have told us your ideas. I ask you how many cars do we need to to make  an excellent difference to our emissions?  How many? We probably have 4 million cars in NZ, and not all of those are probably in active use. Some cannot manage EV range or use case.

 

How many cars should we move to EV? 4 million?  2? 1?


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  # 2231414 6-May-2019 09:51
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tdgeek:

 

No need to say wow. Why say that?? I asked a VERY simple question, but you wont answer

 

You have told us your ideas. I ask you how many cars do we need to to make  an excellent difference to our emissions?  How many? We probably have 4 million cars in NZ, and not all of those are probably in active use. Some cannot manage EV range or use case.

 

How many cars should we move to EV? 4 million?  2? 1?

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to hit a chord, and yep for some reason I assumed your question was rhetorical.

 

The reason I said wow was because your question seemed to imply all or nothing, Ie no in between, which I guess is a common response but always unexpected.

 

 

 

An excellent difference? 100k cars i guess. (or 2.5% of total NZ fleet size or 3.33% of NZ car/SUV fleet) This would account for 2.1% of NZ emission reductions*

 

A much needed difference, IE a start? An additional 5-10k to the existing fleet. (for a total of 0.55% of NZ fleet)

 

Difference needed to impact ACC figures? 50k? (1.25% of NZ fleet)

 

 

 

I don't think we should expect any changes to be made over night, and if we don't start soon, then the 'excellent difference' will never be achievable.

 

FYI, Dec 2018, NZ hit the 11.8k mark for total number of EVs on the road, so 0.2% of total NZ vehicle fleet (0.39% of NZ car/SUV fleet).

 

Currently we are projected to hit 2.25% mark for total EVs in NZ fleet around 2022.

 

 

 

I would assume that if the 'fat incentives' like the ones I proposed above came into effect, then EV growth would far exceed projected totals. 

 

 

 

*Cars/SUVs account for 63.5% of NZ emissions (2015 report) Assuming EVs fall into this category.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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