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18505 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2249069 31-May-2019 12:41
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

We've talked about how a feebate could work without doing that.  Putting the feebate against new or new to NZ cars and excluding second hand cars doesn't punish those that aren't in a position to buy an EV.

 

 

So every new or new to NZ car is 100% suitable for an EV? No. Range, size, towing, weight carrying means they are not. And why only support new EV's that will be owned for many years when business EV's will save more GG as they do far more mileage, and they will be recycled to the second hand market on just 3 years.

 

Im looking at saving emissions, but the theme seems to be getting residential consumers into a cheaper car

 

 

More, every new or new to NZ car could be paying for the impact they cause.  If you don't want to buy an EV or there's not an EV suitable, buy a second hand model and reduce emissions.

 

 

Ok, so say no to a new ICE that has newer tech and lower fuel consumption, and buy a second hand that has older tech, wear and tear and thus uses more fuel.

 

If you were serious about climate change you would target vehicles that run higher annual mileage, and will make more of a difference

 

Try this. Look at a benefit based on annual mileage. Higher the mileage, more benefit. Start it at 15000 km per annum


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2249070 31-May-2019 12:49
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

We've talked about how a feebate could work without doing that.  Putting the feebate against new or new to NZ cars and excluding second hand cars doesn't punish those that aren't in a position to buy an EV.

 

 

So every new or new to NZ car is 100% suitable for an EV? No. Range, size, towing, weight carrying means they are not. And why only support new EV's that will be owned for many years when business EV's will save more GG as they do far more mileage, and they will be recycled to the second hand market on just 3 years.

 

Im looking at saving emissions, but the theme seems to be getting residential consumers into a cheaper car

 

 

More, every new or new to NZ car could be paying for the impact they cause.  If you don't want to buy an EV or there's not an EV suitable, buy a second hand model and reduce emissions.

 

 

Ok, so say no to a new ICE that has newer tech and lower fuel consumption, and buy a second hand that has older tech, wear and tear and thus uses more fuel.

 

If you were serious about climate change you would target vehicles that run higher annual mileage, and will make more of a difference

 

Try this. Look at a benefit based on annual mileage. Higher the mileage, more benefit. Start it at 15000 km per annum

 

 

Are new cars more efficient than a 20 year old second hand car?  Yeah.  A 5-10 year old car?  Not by much.  Will those efficiency improvements make up for the emissions generated in making the new vehicle and then shipping it to New Zealand?  That will take many years.  So yes, going for a second hand ICE vehicle is going to be better for the environment than a new ICE vehicle


 
 
 
 


18505 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2249073 31-May-2019 13:01
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Obraik:

 

Try this. Look at a benefit based on annual mileage. Higher the mileage, more benefit. Start it at 15000 km per annum

 

 

 

Are new cars more efficient than a 20 year old second hand car?  Yeah.  A 5-10 year old car?  Not by much.  Will those efficiency improvements make up for the emissions generated in making the new vehicle and then shipping it to New Zealand?  That will take many years.  So yes, going for a second hand ICE vehicle is going to be better for the environment than a new ICE vehicle

 

 

No.

 

You forgot to comment on "Look at a benefit based on annual mileage. Higher the mileage, more benefit. Start it at 15000 km per annum"

 

The key is targeting vehicles that add the most GG. Not cars that will commute and go to Mitre 10 in the weekend. Vehicles that travel many many km annually. This excludes the vast majority of residential cars.  


18505 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2249075 31-May-2019 13:12
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Tell me what you would have applied in yesterdays budget. Lets assume that new Leafs, Kona's, Koniq's are all in stock and no waiting lines


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2249084 31-May-2019 13:29
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tdgeek:

 

Try this. Look at a benefit based on annual mileage. Higher the mileage, more benefit. Start it at 15000 km per annum

 

 

Not sure I understand what you're suggesting.  You get a subsidy based on the car you're trading in?  The higher the KMs on it the more subsidy you get?

 

tdgeek:

 

No.

 

The key is targeting vehicles that add the most GG. Not cars that will commute and go to Mitre 10 in the weekend. Vehicles that travel many many km annually. This excludes the vast majority of residential cars.  

 

 

No to what?

 

GG?  Most people that use their car for a trip to the shops on the weekend aren't buying new cars all that often, if at all.  Most people that own a car use it for their daily commute to and from work every day.


18505 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2249089 31-May-2019 13:39
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Try this. Look at a benefit based on annual mileage. Higher the mileage, more benefit. Start it at 15000 km per annum

 

 

Not sure I understand what you're suggesting.  You get a subsidy based on the car you're trading in?  The higher the KMs on it the more subsidy you get?

 

tdgeek:

 

No.

 

The key is targeting vehicles that add the most GG. Not cars that will commute and go to Mitre 10 in the weekend. Vehicles that travel many many km annually. This excludes the vast majority of residential cars.  

 

 

No to what?

 

GG?  Most people that use their car for a trip to the shops on the weekend aren't buying new cars all that often, if at all.  Most people that own a car use it for their daily commute to and from work every day.

 

 

You want subsidies to buy an EV. Base that on mileage. You get a subsidy based on the mileage you use, if you drive more mileage you are saving more GG (Greenhouse gases) so we will incentivise you. That wont include low mileage annual running

 

Commute, what you replied to is what I said. Commuting, (school, work) and pottering around in the weekend (shops) doesn't offer much GG saving. We can't pay for that. There are EV's here. There are LONG waiting lists. Doesn't seem much need to subsidise them. Businesses I would do things to get them into it big time. Although you could argue there is no need to

 

 


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2249153 31-May-2019 14:17
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tdgeek:

 

Tell me what you would have applied in yesterdays budget. Lets assume that new Leafs, Kona's, Koniq's are all in stock and no waiting lines

 

 

Are you asking what vehicle I would buy?  A Tesla Model 3.  Waiting lists also don't mean people are going to buy them.  There's no obligation for them to go through with the purchase - a lot of those people are just going to be putting themselves in the queue for one and will worry about the finances when the vehicle is available.  I have a pre-order on a Model 3 but I'm not going to be pulling the trigger on it until I know what the government is doing around the whole subsidy topic.  If there is no subsidy then I'm not going to be getting it as soon as I would as I'll need to bring more of my own savings.

 

tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Try this. Look at a benefit based on annual mileage. Higher the mileage, more benefit. Start it at 15000 km per annum

 

 

Not sure I understand what you're suggesting.  You get a subsidy based on the car you're trading in?  The higher the KMs on it the more subsidy you get?

 

tdgeek:

 

No.

 

The key is targeting vehicles that add the most GG. Not cars that will commute and go to Mitre 10 in the weekend. Vehicles that travel many many km annually. This excludes the vast majority of residential cars.  

 

 

No to what?

 

GG?  Most people that use their car for a trip to the shops on the weekend aren't buying new cars all that often, if at all.  Most people that own a car use it for their daily commute to and from work every day.

 

 

You want subsidies to buy an EV. Base that on mileage. You get a subsidy based on the mileage you use, if you drive more mileage you are saving more GG (Greenhouse gases) so we will incentivise you. That wont include low mileage annual running

 

Commute, what you replied to is what I said. Commuting, (school, work) and pottering around in the weekend (shops) doesn't offer much GG saving. We can't pay for that. There are EV's here. There are LONG waiting lists. Doesn't seem much need to subsidise them. Businesses I would do things to get them into it big time. Although you could argue there is no need to

 

 

 

 

So you'd have to submit a mileage report every year and receive a yearly subsidy with the more travel you do resulting in more subsidy? That seems like a lot of overhead compared to what most countries are successfully doing while also sending the wrong message.

 

Commuting IS the main source of emissions from vehicles. Emissions generated from commuting is what we need to cut down on and getting those commuters out of ICE vehicles and into EVs absolutely will help with that.  I'm not arguing that businesses shouldn't be given subsidies, I'm arguing that EVERYONE should have access to subsidies to do the right thing and switch to an EV.

 

 


 
 
 
 


18505 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2249158 31-May-2019 14:21
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You are not reading what is written. Later


884 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 2249160 31-May-2019 14:28
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Obraik:

 

Commuting IS the main source of emissions from vehicles. Emissions generated from commuting is what we need to cut down on and getting those commuters out of ICE vehicles and into EVs absolutely will help with that.  I'm not arguing that businesses shouldn't be given subsidies, I'm arguing that EVERYONE should have access to subsidies to do the right thing and switch to an EV.

 

 

Do we want to be encouraging more commuters? Or investing in better alternative transport options. Electric buses and/or trains, get people off the roads, out of their own personal vehicles, don't encourage more of them... I am surprised that any country thinks investing in personal transportation is still a good long term investment.

 

May be buy a Leaf in the meantime, and save for a second hand model 3 in a few years? The suggested savings from the leaf should help. If I was buying a commuter vehicle today, I'd be taking a leaf pretty seriously.


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2249178 31-May-2019 15:19
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NzBeagle:

 

Obraik:

 

Commuting IS the main source of emissions from vehicles. Emissions generated from commuting is what we need to cut down on and getting those commuters out of ICE vehicles and into EVs absolutely will help with that.  I'm not arguing that businesses shouldn't be given subsidies, I'm arguing that EVERYONE should have access to subsidies to do the right thing and switch to an EV.

 

 

Do we want to be encouraging more commuters? Or investing in better alternative transport options. Electric buses and/or trains, get people off the roads, out of their own personal vehicles, don't encourage more of them... I am surprised that any country thinks investing in personal transportation is still a good long term investment.

 

May be buy a Leaf in the meantime, and save for a second hand model 3 in a few years? The suggested savings from the leaf should help. If I was buying a commuter vehicle today, I'd be taking a leaf pretty seriously.

 

 

I agree, public transport needs to be invested in.  However, we're a long way off from everyone being able to get by without a car due to public transport being neglected for so many years. Getting public transport to where it needs is going to take many, many years whereas moving car commuters to EVs is something that we could start taking action on now. As I've mentioned, I don't think a subsidy should be a case of "let's just assign some money from X" but rather any subsidies should be raised from people making "the wrong choice" and buying a new or NZ new vehicle.


18505 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2249187 31-May-2019 16:12
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Tell me what you would have applied in yesterdays budget. Lets assume that new Leafs, Kona's, Koniq's are all in stock and no waiting lines

 

 

Are you asking what vehicle I would buy?  A Tesla Model 3.  Waiting lists also don't mean people are going to buy them.  There's no obligation for them to go through with the purchase - a lot of those people are just going to be putting themselves in the queue for one and will worry about the finances when the vehicle is available.  I have a pre-order on a Model 3 but I'm not going to be pulling the trigger on it until I know what the government is doing around the whole subsidy topic.  If there is no subsidy then I'm not going to be getting it as soon as I would as I'll need to bring more of my own savings.

 

 

I was asking what you would have applied in yesterdays budget, not what EV you want. What measures for EV would you have brought in yesterday in the Budget, and what cost are they, and what would you have dropped to allow your measure?

 

 

 

If you can afford a Tesla 3, a 10k subsidy wont matter. Similarly if it was an 80k EV, a 10k saving wont mean you can now afford it. Same with a 65k EV, if its 55k, you want be saying I can afford it now

 

As for your option of tax ICE and rebate EV. If I can afford a new 80k ICE and you tax me 10k I can still afford it, but I have to as an EV doesn't cut my use case. The buyer who gets my 10k can already afford his 80k EV, my 10k is just a bonus

 

Lets assume that new Leafs, Kona's, Koniq's are all in stock and no waiting lines. THEY WILL GO LIKE HOT CAKES. Why? Because your fuel bill is now peanuts instead of 60 litres at $2.30 per litres. Repairs are now pretty much just tyres. They already have a feature thats worth buying, they don't need a subsidy 


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2249239 31-May-2019 17:13
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Tell me what you would have applied in yesterdays budget. Lets assume that new Leafs, Kona's, Koniq's are all in stock and no waiting lines

 

 

Are you asking what vehicle I would buy?  A Tesla Model 3.  Waiting lists also don't mean people are going to buy them.  There's no obligation for them to go through with the purchase - a lot of those people are just going to be putting themselves in the queue for one and will worry about the finances when the vehicle is available.  I have a pre-order on a Model 3 but I'm not going to be pulling the trigger on it until I know what the government is doing around the whole subsidy topic.  If there is no subsidy then I'm not going to be getting it as soon as I would as I'll need to bring more of my own savings.

 

 

I was asking what you would have applied in yesterdays budget, not what EV you want. What measures for EV would you have brought in yesterday in the Budget, and what cost are they, and what would you have dropped to allow your measure?

 

 

As I said, I'd go the route of funding EV subsidies from "emission taxes" on new and NZ new ICE purchases, not from the budget itself

 

tdgeek:

 

If you can afford a Tesla 3, a 10k subsidy wont matter. Similarly if it was an 80k EV, a 10k saving wont mean you can now afford it. Same with a 65k EV, if its 55k, you want be saying I can afford it now

 

As for your option of tax ICE and rebate EV. If I can afford a new 80k ICE and you tax me 10k I can still afford it, but I have to as an EV doesn't cut my use case. The buyer who gets my 10k can already afford his 80k EV, my 10k is just a bonus

 

Lets assume that new Leafs, Kona's, Koniq's are all in stock and no waiting lines. THEY WILL GO LIKE HOT CAKES. Why? Because your fuel bill is now peanuts instead of 60 litres at $2.30 per litres. Repairs are now pretty much just tyres. They already have a feature thats worth buying, they don't need a subsidy 

 

 

This has been discussed a few times now, but the point of a subsidy is to swing the decision of those buying a car from buying an ICE. Currently, an EV has an R&D premium on its cost, so when you pay $60-70k for an EV you're getting the features and quality of around a $40-50k ICE vehicle, or sometimes less. If you're buying a car and there's that much sticker price difference most would go for the less for more option.  The idea is to bring the equivalent EV down to the budget point of that buyer.  No fuel bills and lack of maintenance are perks but sticker price is always going to be the biggest thing that will sway a buyer.


1135 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2249255 31-May-2019 18:03
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Tesla model 3 now available in NZ, from $925 per month, or $74,960 Inc gst. Now time for those government coffers to open up!

884 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 2249256 31-May-2019 18:06
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jjnz1: Tesla model 3 now available in NZ, from $925 per month, or $74,960 Inc gst. Now time for those government coffers to open up!

 

Great pricing, even without subsidies. Can't wait to see these on the road.


1135 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2249257 31-May-2019 18:10
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NzBeagle:

jjnz1: Tesla model 3 now available in NZ, from $925 per month, or $74,960 Inc gst. Now time for those government coffers to open up!


Great pricing, even without subsidies. Can't wait to see these on the road.



I think so.

Tesla reckon you'll save $137 per month on fuel costs too. 460km range (base model) is fantastic too!

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