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18505 posts

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  # 2254206 8-Jun-2019 10:37
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Obraik:

 

We're better off funding EVs from the purchase of vehicles that produce emissions as that is going to have better public acceptance.  You're not taxing everyone, you're taxing those that are making an optional decision

 

 

That is a flawed argument. Its not optional.

 

Many have use cases that cannot manage an EV, but you what to force them to buy a used ICE, OR pay a penalty 

 

I can afford a 64kEh EV. But I dont want to be forced into buying one. At 40k more, the cost saving benefit is not there, so you want to force me to buy a vehicle that in terms of price vs value is very poor value. Why should I pay a penalty when I get my ICE?

 

When an ICE and an equivalent EV are similar in price, say the ICE is $60k and the EV is $70k, then feel free to tax the ICE or ban it.

 

 


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2254347 8-Jun-2019 15:12
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

We're better off funding EVs from the purchase of vehicles that produce emissions as that is going to have better public acceptance.  You're not taxing everyone, you're taxing those that are making an optional decision

 

 

That is a flawed argument. Its not optional.

 

Many have use cases that cannot manage an EV, but you what to force them to buy a used ICE, OR pay a penalty 

 

I can afford a 64kEh EV. But I dont want to be forced into buying one. At 40k more, the cost saving benefit is not there, so you want to force me to buy a vehicle that in terms of price vs value is very poor value. Why should I pay a penalty when I get my ICE?

 

When an ICE and an equivalent EV are similar in price, say the ICE is $60k and the EV is $70k, then feel free to tax the ICE or ban it.

 

 

 

 

Why is buying a second hand vehicle not an option over buying new?

 

You need to pay a penalty on the new ICE vehicle you buy because of this tiny little thing called climate change ;) It isn't going to be cheap to clean up our carbon emissions so if you insist on buying something that only compounds the problem then yeah, you should pay to help negate it.  Do you think tax payers should pay for that instead?


 
 
 
 


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  # 2254391 8-Jun-2019 15:30
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Obraik:

 

 

 

 

 

Why is buying a second hand vehicle not an option over buying new?

 

You need to pay a penalty on the new ICE vehicle you buy because of this tiny little thing called climate change ;) It isn't going to be cheap to clean up our carbon emissions so if you insist on buying something that only compounds the problem then yeah, you should pay to help negate it.  Do you think tax payers should pay for that instead?

 

 

New is new, you know the history, you are not buying a vehicle that was not looked after. More fuel efficient. Safer.

 

So as my use case, or what I can afford, precludes me for buying an EV, so you ask me to pay for part of yours.  I may not be on a pait0on to buy an EV so I have to pay a penalty for that. Yeah, great.

 

Maybe we could do the same for solar PV. If you refuse to get solar PV you have to pay a monthly fee that goes towards mine. So, like you idea, you have to pay a penalty as you wont buy a solution that is poor price value.

 

I agree thats its not cheap, but you keep focusing on your subsidy for your EV and ignoring fitting out businesses with EV's which will reduce more emissions.

 

If you wish to make people pay a penalty you need to A) make sure the emission savings are worth it, they are not for shopping trolleys. They are for businesses who drive many km per year. But you keep avoiding that.  B)  You need to target people when there is a choice. Not everyone can use an EV or afford it, so why punish them?

 

There are FAR more pressing issues with helping climate change than paying people to buy cars that dont cause many emissions. But you seem to want that anyway, as you get a subsidy, and you are happy that a business vehicle that traceless much further than you every year is an ICE  


802 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2254392 8-Jun-2019 15:30
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Obraik:

 

If we use an emissions calculator and assume a medium car, that's 1,249kg of carbon emissions per person for a 5 day work week over 52 weeks.  In this sample those sampled people who said they drove contributed 6,075,136‬kg of carbon emissions. 

 

 

 

 

Hmm. I used that emissions calculator. 21,196kg seems like a lot per year. Not sure I'm ready for an EV yet, unfortunately I need 600km range and don't feel like dragging a power cord out of the motel room four nights a week. 


18505 posts

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  # 2254393 8-Jun-2019 15:35
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mudguard:

 

Obraik:

 

If we use an emissions calculator and assume a medium car, that's 1,249kg of carbon emissions per person for a 5 day work week over 52 weeks.  In this sample those sampled people who said they drove contributed 6,075,136‬kg of carbon emissions. 

 

 

 

 

Hmm. I used that emissions calculator. 13,196kg seems like a lot per year. Not sure I'm ready for an EV yet, unfortunately I need 600km range and don't feel like dragging a power cord out of the motel room four nights a week. 

 

 

Well, in that case, if Obraiks policy was in vogue, that's too bad for you. When you buy a new car you have to pay a penalty so Obraik can save money on his. And we can both watch business vehicles spew out fumes as the focus is on saving emissions on school drop offs, shopping and trips to work.  


802 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2254394 8-Jun-2019 15:41
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tdgeek:

 

Well, in that case, if Obraiks policy was in vogue, that's too bad for you. When you buy a new car you have to pay a penalty so Obraik can save money on his. And we can both watch business vehicles spew out fumes as the focus is on saving emissions on school drop offs, shopping and trips to work.  

 

 

I forgot about my flights and edited the amount, but you quoted too fast!

 

I thought long and hard about a hybrid (I've just bought a new work car) as I get reimbursed per km, but the fuel savings going from the 2.5 Camry to the 2.0 Corolla are fairly hefty anyway. Maybe next time, I just really didn't like how vague both hybrid versions were under brakes. 


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2254395 8-Jun-2019 15:42
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

 

 

 

 

Why is buying a second hand vehicle not an option over buying new?

 

You need to pay a penalty on the new ICE vehicle you buy because of this tiny little thing called climate change ;) It isn't going to be cheap to clean up our carbon emissions so if you insist on buying something that only compounds the problem then yeah, you should pay to help negate it.  Do you think tax payers should pay for that instead?

 

 

New is new, you know the history, you are not buying a vehicle that was not looked after. More fuel efficient. Safer.

 

So as my use case, or what I can afford, precludes me for buying an EV, so you ask me to pay for part of yours.  I may not be on a pait0on to buy an EV so I have to pay a penalty for that. Yeah, great.

 

Maybe we could do the same for solar PV. If you refuse to get solar PV you have to pay a monthly fee that goes towards mine. So, like you idea, you have to pay a penalty as you wont buy a solution that is poor price value.

 

I agree thats its not cheap, but you keep focusing on your subsidy for your EV and ignoring fitting out businesses with EV's which will reduce more emissions.

 

If you wish to make people pay a penalty you need to A) make sure the emission savings are worth it, they are not for shopping trolleys. They are for businesses who drive many km per year. But you keep avoiding that.  B)  You need to target people when there is a choice. Not everyone can use an EV or afford it, so why punish them?

 

There are FAR more pressing issues with helping climate change than paying people to buy cars that dont cause many emissions. But you seem to want that anyway, as you get a subsidy, and you are happy that a business vehicle that traceless much further than you every year is an ICE  

 

 

A 5 year old ICE vehicle (as an example) is not going to have much worse efficiencies than a new one you buy today.  Whatever improvements it does have is certainly not going to offset the emissions required to make that new vehicle and ship it to NZ.

 

Not sure why you keep referring to Solar PV.  Are you assuming our power generation is excessively dirty?  It's not...

 

You also seem to keep insisting that emissions from people commuting isn't a big contributor to emissions when I showed you yesterday the calculations one can do to see just how much it actually is contributing.  No where did I say that business shouldn't also be given subsidies however I don't believe subsidies should exclude individuals.  Similar to Sweden (as mentioned in the article I linked to yesterday) businesses also could get the same benefits on any EV they purchase.  You seem to also want to insist that I'm doing this so I can get a free hand out, when I've already explained my wanting of an EV subsidy


 
 
 
 


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2254396 8-Jun-2019 15:50
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mudguard:

 

Obraik:

 

If we use an emissions calculator and assume a medium car, that's 1,249kg of carbon emissions per person for a 5 day work week over 52 weeks.  In this sample those sampled people who said they drove contributed 6,075,136‬kg of carbon emissions. 

 

 

 

 

Hmm. I used that emissions calculator. 21,196kg seems like a lot per year. Not sure I'm ready for an EV yet, unfortunately I need 600km range and don't feel like dragging a power cord out of the motel room four nights a week. 

 

 

Plenty of Motels and Hotels have proper EV chargers at them, especially since they can sign up with Tesla and get one for free.  While they're Tesla branded, they aren't "smart" like a Tesla Supercharger and you can charge other EVs on them.

 

A long range Tesla Model S is rated by Tesla for 610km range but it's not cheap at $146k.  I have to ask though, do you usually drive 600km non-stop?  You don't have a 10-20min stop for food or anything along the way?  A much cheaper Model 3 would be more than adequate for a 600km journey if you do have the length of stops I mentioned as that would be enough time to top up its charge to get through the journey


802 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2254437 8-Jun-2019 16:01
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Obraik:

 

Plenty of Motels and Hotels have proper EV chargers at them, especially since they can sign up with Tesla and get one for free.  While they're Tesla branded, they aren't "smart" like a Tesla Supercharger and you can charge other EVs on them.

 

A long range Tesla Model S is rated by Tesla for 610km range but it's not cheap at $146k.  I have to ask though, do you usually drive 600km non-stop?  You don't have a 10-20min stop for food or anything along the way?  A much cheaper Model 3 would be more than adequate for a 600km journey if you do have the length of stops I mentioned as that would be enough time to top up its charge to get through the journey

 

 

Oh I stop plenty of times, I try not to drive for more than 90 minutes without a stretch, pee, coffee etc. And I could certainly plug in for half an hour and just have my lunch then. The motel/hotel thing I'm sure will come, however I'm never in the same place for more than a night. And I wonder if it becomes more common will the offer power free like wifi? Or if there are 30 cars plugged in each night...

 

Budget is the key, $40k was my limit. And there is an element of range anxiety, several times a year I've had to turn around and drive an extra 100km I wasn't expecting. That said I guess you can plug in almost anywhere. 


18505 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2254442 8-Jun-2019 16:28
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Obraik:

 

A 5 year old ICE vehicle (as an example) is not going to have much worse efficiencies than a new one you buy today.  Whatever improvements it does have is certainly not going to offset the emissions required to make that new vehicle and ship it to NZ.

 

Not sure why you keep referring to Solar PV.  Are you assuming our power generation is excessively dirty?  It's not...

 

You also seem to keep insisting that emissions from people commuting isn't a big contributor to emissions when I showed you yesterday the calculations one can do to see just how much it actually is contributing.  No where did I say that business shouldn't also be given subsidies however I don't believe subsidies should exclude individuals.  Similar to Sweden (as mentioned in the article I linked to yesterday) businesses also could get the same benefits on any EV they purchase.  You seem to also want to insist that I'm doing this so I can get a free hand out, when I've already explained my wanting of an EV subsidy

 

 

Ok, lets all buy 5yo ICE cars with 80,000km on the clock as they are as efficient as a new one. OMG

 

Solar PV is the same as your ICE subsidy. EV's at a 35k to 40k premium or a poor value buy, as is solar PV, yet you what a poor value purchase to be subsidised.

 

You do want a handout as you keep focussing on low travelling EV's. If these EV;s travelled a lot of annual km then yes, worth looking at. Buy you want subsidise for cars that don't travel far. Of all the functions that use emissions, you focus on the lower end. Are shopping trolleys a big contributor? Lets say they are. There are many more that are bigger contributors, but your not that into those. Put the money where you can get the biggest return. 


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2254478 8-Jun-2019 18:32
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mudguard:

 

Obraik:

 

Plenty of Motels and Hotels have proper EV chargers at them, especially since they can sign up with Tesla and get one for free.  While they're Tesla branded, they aren't "smart" like a Tesla Supercharger and you can charge other EVs on them.

 

A long range Tesla Model S is rated by Tesla for 610km range but it's not cheap at $146k.  I have to ask though, do you usually drive 600km non-stop?  You don't have a 10-20min stop for food or anything along the way?  A much cheaper Model 3 would be more than adequate for a 600km journey if you do have the length of stops I mentioned as that would be enough time to top up its charge to get through the journey

 

 

Oh I stop plenty of times, I try not to drive for more than 90 minutes without a stretch, pee, coffee etc. And I could certainly plug in for half an hour and just have my lunch then. The motel/hotel thing I'm sure will come, however I'm never in the same place for more than a night. And I wonder if it becomes more common will the offer power free like wifi? Or if there are 30 cars plugged in each night...

 

Budget is the key, $40k was my limit. And there is an element of range anxiety, several times a year I've had to turn around and drive an extra 100km I wasn't expecting. That said I guess you can plug in almost anywhere. 

 

 

Unfortunately yeah, right now $40k doesn't get you much EV but I guess the good thing to know is that EVs do exist with the range you're looking for and will eventually filter their way down to that price range.  As long as your routes have access to fast charging then a quick stop is going to be feasible to get you the range needed to continue on.  A lot of EVs can get to 80% in 20mins or less when using 50kw chargers.  Soon we're going to be seeing 150kw+ chargers which will only help improve those times.


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2254481 8-Jun-2019 18:50
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

A 5 year old ICE vehicle (as an example) is not going to have much worse efficiencies than a new one you buy today.  Whatever improvements it does have is certainly not going to offset the emissions required to make that new vehicle and ship it to NZ.

 

Not sure why you keep referring to Solar PV.  Are you assuming our power generation is excessively dirty?  It's not...

 

You also seem to keep insisting that emissions from people commuting isn't a big contributor to emissions when I showed you yesterday the calculations one can do to see just how much it actually is contributing.  No where did I say that business shouldn't also be given subsidies however I don't believe subsidies should exclude individuals.  Similar to Sweden (as mentioned in the article I linked to yesterday) businesses also could get the same benefits on any EV they purchase.  You seem to also want to insist that I'm doing this so I can get a free hand out, when I've already explained my wanting of an EV subsidy

 

 

Ok, lets all buy 5yo ICE cars with 80,000km on the clock as they are as efficient as a new one. OMG

 

Solar PV is the same as your ICE subsidy. EV's at a 35k to 40k premium or a poor value buy, as is solar PV, yet you what a poor value purchase to be subsidised.

 

You do want a handout as you keep focussing on low travelling EV's. If these EV;s travelled a lot of annual km then yes, worth looking at. Buy you want subsidise for cars that don't travel far. Of all the functions that use emissions, you focus on the lower end. Are shopping trolleys a big contributor? Lets say they are. There are many more that are bigger contributors, but your not that into those. Put the money where you can get the biggest return. 

 

 

Again, I'll repeat myself, commuters are one of the big contributors to carbon emissions, a fact you keep ignoring and when sources mention it you say "they're wrong" without backing it up.  It's not this negligible amount that you keep making it out to be and it's something we need to resolve. Yes, if you want to buy a new ICE vehicle going forward you should pay to counter those emissions you will be generating.  Adding to a pool of funds that can be used as a subsidy to entice people that would be happy with an EV to purchase one is helpful to reducing this problem.

 

At this point it's pretty clear you've made your point clear that you don't support an EV subsidy, you don't care to counter ICE emissions and as such it's pointless for me to engage in a debate with you anymore since we seem to be going around in a loop.


18505 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2254499 8-Jun-2019 19:04
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Obraik:

 

Again, I'll repeat myself, commuters are one of the big contributors to carbon emissions, a fact you keep ignoring and when sources mention it you say "they're wrong" without backing it up.  It's not this negligible amount that you keep making it out to be and it's something we need to resolve. Yes, if you want to buy a new ICE vehicle going forward you should pay to counter those emissions you will be generating.  Adding to a pool of funds that can be used as a subsidy to entice people that would be happy with an EV to purchase one is helpful to reducing this problem.

 

At this point it's pretty clear you've made your point clear that you don't support an EV subsidy, you don't care to counter ICE emissions and as such it's pointless for me to engage in a debate with you anymore since we seem to be going around in a loop.

 

 

You have already backed that up. a low %. You continue to ignore the many other cars that will do far more mileage and this save far more emissions. You then say lets subsidise them too. Well how many new ICE cars do you need to take money from, based on 1/10 per car as per the article, for this ever growing num new of EVs that you want to get free money for?

 

You keep saying shopping cars are significant, I keep saying there are MANY other uses, transport and non transport  that are much more significant. But, yes, these 5 day short trips are more important than commercial use which is more significant. Comes back to the 10k eh?

 

And please read. I support EV's. I dont support subsidies that do little t0 reduce emissions, I support business use to reduce a great deal of emissions you do not. I support business use as that provides pre owned EV's quicker than giving me 10k to put towards my 75k purchase. I support climate change by using the funds where there are better benefits for the dollar. You what the 10k for yourself. I do too actually but I look at the greater good. By saying I dont care to counter ICE omissions is ridiculous. You dont. You prefer to tac people that cannot use an EV to give you 10k for your Ev that goes to work each day. 

 

If you favour low mileage emission saving vs my preference for hgh mileage emission saving, then yes, its a loop. 


18505 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2254501 8-Jun-2019 19:06
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In any case, no Government will add taxes to people who buy an ICE as an EV doesn't work, so that those who can already afford an EV, get a free 10k. Thats been stated many times in these threads. There are waiting lists, there is the answer. There is no need to convince anyone.


504 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2254505 8-Jun-2019 19:10
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tdgeek:

 

Obraik:

 

Again, I'll repeat myself, commuters are one of the big contributors to carbon emissions, a fact you keep ignoring and when sources mention it you say "they're wrong" without backing it up.  It's not this negligible amount that you keep making it out to be and it's something we need to resolve. Yes, if you want to buy a new ICE vehicle going forward you should pay to counter those emissions you will be generating.  Adding to a pool of funds that can be used as a subsidy to entice people that would be happy with an EV to purchase one is helpful to reducing this problem.

 

At this point it's pretty clear you've made your point clear that you don't support an EV subsidy, you don't care to counter ICE emissions and as such it's pointless for me to engage in a debate with you anymore since we seem to be going around in a loop.

 

 

You have already backed that up. a low %. You continue to ignore the many other cars that will do far more mileage and this save far more emissions. You then say lets subsidise them too. Well how many new ICE cars do you need to take money from, based on 1/10 per car as per the article, for this ever growing num new of EVs that you want to get free money for?

 

You keep saying shopping cars are significant, I keep saying there are MANY other uses, transport and non transport  that are much more significant. But, yes, these 5 day short trips are more important than commercial use which is more significant. Comes back to the 10k eh?

 

And please read. I support EV's. I dont support subsidies that do little t0 reduce emissions, I support business use to reduce a great deal of emissions you do not. I support business use as that provides pre owned EV's quicker than giving me 10k to put towards my 75k purchase. I support climate change by using the funds where there are better benefits for the dollar. You what the 10k for yourself. I do too actually but I look at the greater good. By saying I dont care to counter ICE omissions is ridiculous. You dont. You prefer to tac people that cannot use an EV to give you 10k for your Ev that goes to work each day. 

 

If you favour low mileage emission saving vs my preference for hgh mileage emission saving, then yes, its a loop. 

 

 

You seem to think the 6mil figure I gave is a total.  It's not.  It's a sample. 

 

You keep saying "shopping carts" when I've been talking about people driving to work.  The main thing people use cars for.

 

I don't think we need to care that people can or can't use an EV.  If its emitting emissions then it needs to pay its way


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