Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.


Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | ... | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | ... | 60
19045 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2259802 17-Jun-2019 22:07
Send private message

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

What you seem too be saying, is to encourage me to buy a lesser car than I want? As a car, Kona is fine. It's ok. So Id get that. But you suggest I should just get a Leaf as thats cheaper? I told Mr OB I have a horse etc,  and he said I need to get a Tesla X. How many people will go from a car that does what they need it to do, to near on 150k to replace it? Or a 40k new car is now 80k?

 

 

With EVs, the greater the battery capacity and the range, the higher the cost. Also, if you want it highly specd with all the top extras, you have to pay for it.

 

So, if you want a good NZ-new EV with around 250km of range and with reasonable specs, you now don't need to pay more than $60,000. 

 

So, if someone is really interested in helping with reducing emissions, why not buy a NZ-new 40 kWh Leaf for $60,000 or a second-hand one for thousands less! The environment will really thank you for doing this! It's no use waiting years until you can afford to buy a more expensive EV, the planet simply can't wait that long for you to get going, or that's what I'm told.

 

 

 

 

So you don't want me to buy a car I what, just one that is on the lot? I dont buy ICE like that either. If EV are to sell, they need a range of models and on the lot. Then they will sell. They will sell themselves. 

 

When people buy  car they buy one they like, the size they want, and so on. You cant expect people to ignore all of that and just buy whatever is on the lot.  


648 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2259833 17-Jun-2019 23:46
Send private message

tdgeek:

 

So, I was looking at a Kona, 40k for the ICE, 80k for the EV. But to tow I need a base X at $144k? :-)  Thats getting slightly ridiculous. Perhaps a Rivian is cheaper. Still expensive for what it is.

 

Why is a near new used ICE not as good as an EV? Say its a Kona. Its $30k. EV is $80k. I would therefore spend $50,000 to save how much emissions per year? Thats is the problem with your idea, individuals will pay a huge amount of cash to save a minimal amount of emissions. Now, all emissions matter, but for me to pay $50,000 to save these? Financially thats exceedingly inefficient. 

 

I expect it will take 30 years minimum to replace the fleet. Say we sell 5000 in 2019. Thats less than a microscopic dust in a big bucket emissions wise. We need bigger savings sooner. IF you want to attack climate change now. 

 

 

You didn't specify a price limit, you just said that there are no EVs to buy and none that suit the tasks you need to do.  All I'm saying is that there is infact at least one that can do what you need.

 

No ICE will ever be as good as an EV when it comes to making a change towards the climate.  Depending on the EV you buy, after the first 6 months of ownership you've negated all emissions from making the vehicle and it is now effectively emissions free whereas the ICE will continue to emit tons of carbon every year.  

 

Of course it's going to take time to replace the fleet with EVs, no one has ever argued that would be an overnight affair, it's especially not going to be quick if we don't do anything to encourage their uptake. Also, no one has argued that converting the fleet to EVs is the only thing we should be doing towards climate change, there's a huge list of things we should be doing across all sectors but this topic is about vehicles and as such the discussion is around what do about vehicles.  But be sure, it's not simply a case of "we can only do this one thing so it better be the best bang for the buck" - it's a whole long list of changes across our way of living that needs to change.


 
 
 
 


648 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2259835 18-Jun-2019 00:02
Send private message

NzBeagle:

 

You're bringing much wealthier countries to the debate here, so that's not a good comparison, is it?

 

I don't see the cost as a barrier, there are people who can't wait to get their Tesla model 3, if I was in the market it would be a consideration. Kona's are on order for many, and other models are starting to enter the market. Do you honestly not think that uptake will increase with these changes? Already I see EVs commonly, especially the Leaf variants. 

 

Currently, the subsidy, of no RUCs further extends the running cost when compared with ICE equivalent, perhaps when that disappears new incentives need to be looked at? 

 

 

@NzBeagle, When even Kenya, a country poorer than NZ, is offering a tax cut on EVs to promote the uptake of them then yeah, I think NZ should be doing a bit more too.  Reducing running costs is one thing but that doesn't really matter when the extra sticker price of the vehicle is out of your budget simply due to the R&D premium one has to pay with an EV so you can't actually realize that reduced running cost.

 

Yes, there are a group of people that are excited for their Model 3, I am one of them, but these are enthusiasts and fans and are prepared to go further to get that car.  Your everyday buyer isn't going to work like that though.  They're going to look at the options and see that for a much reduced cost, they can get the same features in an ICE that they see in an EV.  The goal would be to swing that decision towards the EV instead - clearly the lack of RUC on an EV isn't working at the moment because we're no where near the fleet target that was set.


888 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted

  #2259881 18-Jun-2019 06:06
Send private message

Obraik:

@NzBeagle, When even Kenya, a country poorer than NZ, is offering a tax cut on EVs to promote the uptake of them then yeah, I think NZ should be doing a bit more too.  Reducing running costs is one thing but that doesn't really matter when the extra sticker price of the vehicle is out of your budget simply due to the R&D premium one has to pay with an EV so you can't actually realize that reduced running cost.


Yes, there are a group of people that are excited for their Model 3, I am one of them, but these are enthusiasts and fans and are prepared to go further to get that car.  Your everyday buyer isn't going to work like that though.  They're going to look at the options and see that for a much reduced cost, they can get the same features in an ICE that they see in an EV.  The goal would be to swing that decision towards the EV instead - clearly the lack of RUC on an EV isn't working at the moment because we're no where near the fleet target that was set.



I think when you go to the second hand market that changes, sure, new models carry a hefty premium, but when you start talking 10k for a leaf, I think that's coming into competitive pricing. Right now, there's no where near the range of vehicles available to fulfill the market, those who can, have, or are near to making the jump. I think this has got to be one of the main stalling points. I think with Kia, Hyundai and Tesla bringing alternatives to the market this year we'll see this accelerate.

RUC is a compelling incentive currently, once you add in $72 per 1000km, the gap in "fuel" costs closes, and then you have to rely on the reduced m&r to realise the benefits. Or wait (not long) for pump prices to increase. I'm saying once that goes, we might need another option. Kenya is adding a tax to all vehicles, a lower rate for electric than what they're adding to ICE, good on them, are we talking comparable fleet and population here?

19045 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2259899 18-Jun-2019 07:20
Send private message

Obraik:

 

 

 

You didn't specify a price limit, you just said that there are no ETs to buy and none that suit the tasks you need to do.  All I'm saying is that there is infact at least one that can do what you need.

 

No ICE will ever be as good as an EV when it comes to making a change towards the climate.  Depending on the EV you buy, after the first 6 months of ownership you've negated all emissions from making the vehicle and it is now effectively emissions free whereas the ICE will continue to emit tons of carbon every year.  

 

Of course it's going to take time to replace the fleet with EVs, no one has ever argued that would be an overnight affair, it's especially not going to be quick if we don't do anything to encourage their uptake. Also, no one has argued that converting the fleet to EVs is the only thing we should be doing towards climate change, there's a huge list of things we should be doing across all sectors but this topic is about vehicles and as such the discussion is around what do about vehicles.  But be sure, it's not simply a case of "we can only do this one thing so it better be the best bang for the buck" - it's a whole long list of changes across our way of living that needs to change.

 

 

So you suggest that everyone that wants an EV that is required for towing as oner example, just gets a Tesla X?

 

I read just yesterday that when you compare lifetime emissions of and ICE to an EV, it takes many years for them to equalise. You say its 6 months?

 

I never said we can only do one thing. I did say we need bang for the buck. If this country spends money on combating Climate Change, then that HAS to be best bang for your buck. Is paying you 10k, 20, 35k for one vehicle going to be good value?


19045 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2259902 18-Jun-2019 07:28
Send private message

Obraik:

 

NzBeagle:

 

You're bringing much wealthier countries to the debate here, so that's not a good comparison, is it?

 

I don't see the cost as a barrier, there are people who can't wait to get their Tesla model 3, if I was in the market it would be a consideration. Kona's are on order for many, and other models are starting to enter the market. Do you honestly not think that uptake will increase with these changes? Already I see EVs commonly, especially the Leaf variants. 

 

Currently, the subsidy, of no RUCs further extends the running cost when compared with ICE equivalent, perhaps when that disappears new incentives need to be looked at? 

 

 

@NzBeagle, When even Kenya, a country poorer than NZ, is offering a tax cut on EVs to promote the uptake of them then yeah, I think NZ should be doing a bit more too.  Reducing running costs is one thing but that doesn't really matter when the extra sticker price of the vehicle is out of your budget simply due to the R&D premium one has to pay with an EV so you can't actually realize that reduced running cost.

 

Yes, there are a group of people that are excited for their Model 3, I am one of them, but these are enthusiasts and fans and are prepared to go further to get that car.  Your everyday buyer isn't going to work like that though.  They're going to look at the options and see that for a much reduced cost, they can get the same features in an ICE that they see in an EV.  The goal would be to swing that decision towards the EV instead - clearly the lack of RUC on an EV isn't working at the moment because we're no where near the fleet target that was set.

 

 

Oh dear.

 

You make good points that there is a gulf between value and cost of an EV. Firstly Kenya is not giving a tax cut. It is ADDING tax to all cars to make money. 30-35%. Then it is giving EV's a 10% break.So Kenyan byers will pay more for an EV soon, than what they are now.

 

Its correct that the extra sticker costs cannot be recovered by the R+D premium.

 

Is RUC not working? You dont know that. EV's have been in NZ for quite a few years. There has not been a dealership here selling them, they were all imported, so you can hardly say RUC wasnt working as there was no way to buy a  new car here until relatively recently. Now there is. But in most cases you are on a waiting list,. so this tells me there is demand


19045 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2259904 18-Jun-2019 07:32
Send private message

NzBeagle:

I think when you go to the second hand market that changes, sure, new models carry a hefty premium, but when you start talking 10k for a leaf, I think that's coming into competitive pricing. Right now, there's no where near the range of vehicles available to fulfill the market, those who can, have, or are near to making the jump. I think this has got to be one of the main stalling points. I think with Kia, Hyundai and Tesla bringing alternatives to the market this year we'll see this accelerate.

RUC is a compelling incentive currently, once you add in $72 per 1000km, the gap in "fuel" costs closes, and then you have to rely on the reduced m&r to realise the benefits. Or wait (not long) for pump prices to increase. I'm saying once that goes, we might need another option. Kenya is adding a tax to all vehicles, a lower rate for electric than what they're adding to ICE, good on them, are we talking comparable fleet and population here?

 

I agree, now that there are a range of models, you will see demand. Does a Leaf have a 10k premium? Is there an ICE Leaf? 60k for a basic small car is pricey

 

Dont say good on them to Kenya. Soon, the EV costs more than it does now, thats not good.

 

 


 
 
 
 


1711 posts

Uber Geek


  #2259918 18-Jun-2019 08:13
Send private message

tdgeek:

 

NzBeagle:

I think when you go to the second hand market that changes, sure, new models carry a hefty premium, but when you start talking 10k for a leaf, I think that's coming into competitive pricing. Right now, there's no where near the range of vehicles available to fulfill the market, those who can, have, or are near to making the jump. I think this has got to be one of the main stalling points. I think with Kia, Hyundai and Tesla bringing alternatives to the market this year we'll see this accelerate.

RUC is a compelling incentive currently, once you add in $72 per 1000km, the gap in "fuel" costs closes, and then you have to rely on the reduced m&r to realise the benefits. Or wait (not long) for pump prices to increase. I'm saying once that goes, we might need another option. Kenya is adding a tax to all vehicles, a lower rate for electric than what they're adding to ICE, good on them, are we talking comparable fleet and population here?

 

I agree, now that there are a range of models, you will see demand. Does a Leaf have a 10k premium? Is there an ICE Leaf? 60k for a basic small car is pricey

 

Dont say good on them to Kenya. Soon, the EV costs more than it does now, thats not good.

 

 

 

 

The closest Nissan equivalent to the Leaf is the Juke.  Small SUV, AWD with all the bells and whistles.  Price $40k.  The Leaf is a 50% premium for the EV version of a Juke (or thereabouts).   


19045 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2259926 18-Jun-2019 08:27
Send private message

ockel:

 

 

 

The closest Nissan equivalent to the Leaf is the Juke.  Small SUV, AWD with all the bells and whistles.  Price $40k.  The Leaf is a 50% premium for the EV version of a Juke (or thereabouts).   

 

 

Thanks. Looks similar too to the older leaf. The new Leaf is more standard car like which is good. Roomier 5 door. Or a 370Z vs a Leaf? Similar price  :-)


1640 posts

Uber Geek


  #2259983 18-Jun-2019 09:03
Send private message

Saw a 2017/2018 MY Leaf charging at the public stations at North West last weekend. Looks like a big step up from the bubble-hatch 2011-style. 

 

If the incentives come in, that would be my first port of call. 


8275 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

  #2259985 18-Jun-2019 09:04
One person supports this post
Send private message

tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

Now look what happened in Sweden recently when the Government increased grants for electric cars - sales went up by a massive 253% in the first 5 months of the year. This proves once again that buyers of EVs are definitely influenced by Government incentives and we must get these going here if we want to increase EV uptake.

 

But, hopefully when we do get a good increase in EV sales here, we will have the capacity for the necessary electricity without having to use any coal to generate it. In some cities in Sweden, demand for electricity is outgrowing capacity.

 

Quote from article linked to above:

 

Sweden’s ambitious plan to drastically cut emissions from transport by bringing millions of electric cars onto the road could be derailed by a lack of power capacity for new charging stations in major cities.

 

An increase in government grants sent sales of electric cars surging by 253% in the first five months this year, but the rally could be over before it’s really started. Demand for electricity in Stockholm and other cities is outgrowing capacity in local grids, forcing new charging networks to compete with other projects from housing to subway lines to get hooked up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

253% on a small number? Registrations tells me they have about 3 X more new cars each year than NZ. 

 

Sweden does suit low distance travelling. From what I can gather, they are subsidising a maximum of 25% of the car price. Norway has a very hgh subsidy, making an EV a similar price to the ICE. Take the Kona here. The 40k ICE Kona. The EV is 80k, so Norways gives you say 35k subsidy. Sweden up to 20k subsidy. 

 

If there was a 25% subsidy Im not surprised sales are great, although only 6600 for 5 months. About 1/5, so a good result. But how would NZ pay for $20,000 subsidy on a base car such as a Kona? 

 

 

How many people buying say a  $30 grand Toyota Corolla can afford to front up with an extra $30 grand plus for a new Leaf??  Not many . 





Regards,

Old3eyes


19045 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2259992 18-Jun-2019 09:09
Send private message

old3eyes:

 

 

 

How many people buying say a  $30 grand Toyota Corolla can afford to front up with an extra $30 grand plus for a new Leaf??  Not many . 

 

 

Exactly. And the Leaf, while its now quite an ok looking car, its the lowest priced EV I assume (Ignoring teeny cars) A 10k subsidy wont get them over the line. What if we get 100 people a 10k subsidy, but 95 were going to buy one anyway as the 10k on an 80k Kona or 80k Tesla or 60k Leaf doesnt really make it "affordable"?  Much of that will be wasted


19045 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

  #2260004 18-Jun-2019 09:24
Send private message

GV27:

 

Saw a 2017/2018 MY Leaf charging at the public stations at North West last weekend. Looks like a big step up from the bubble-hatch 2011-style. 

 

If the incentives come in, that would be my first port of call. 

 

 

GV, you are a political person, as in knowledgeable in politics. Where would you see these cash incentives being funded from?


3885 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

  #2260106 18-Jun-2019 10:58
One person supports this post

What everyone is forgetting, is that very few people actually buy brand new cars by default in NZ. Lots of new cars are actually company purchases. Lots of the Corollas especially would be bought by car rental companies.

So in effect, you guys are arguing over why people who dont buy brand new ICE cars, are not buying brand new EVs either. Even if you make new EVs the same price as new ICE cars. Why would that group of people suddenly start buying brand new?

It is a big jump in price to go from a 5 to 10 year old car, to a brand new one. And in that age bracket, the only EVs available are leafs and the occasional Mitsubishi I car. And if you can only afford to buy in the 15+ year old age bracket, there are no EVs available.

Then if you need a Ute or an SUV that is big enough to actually tow things. Even a new or near new ICE car is expensive, let alone an EV. I bought a 1992 Toyota Hilux Surf for $2K not long ago. It drives fine, is diesel and has 4 wheel drive. It will probably need a new head gasket or cylinder head soon. And who knows how long until the automatic gearbox would need rebuilding. But the cheapest option would be to just pay to rebuild the engine and gearbox. I would love to swap in a more efficient diesel engine. As Mercedes diesel engines are widely available, and they are more reliable than the 2LTE engine that is fitted in the Hilux. But then it would need to be certed. So still cheaper to just wear the extra fuel used by the 2LTE.





648 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2260108 18-Jun-2019 11:04
Send private message

tdgeek:

 

So you suggest that everyone that wants an EV that is required for towing as oner example, just gets a Tesla X?

 

I read just yesterday that when you compare lifetime emissions of and ICE to an EV, it takes many years for them to equalise. You say its 6 months?

 

I never said we can only do one thing. I did say we need bang for the buck. If this country spends money on combating Climate Change, then that HAS to be best bang for your buck. Is paying you 10k, 20, 35k for one vehicle going to be good value?

 

 

Nope, that's not what I said.  I was just correcting you when you said there wasn't an EV that could do what you wanted to do.  Whether it's in your price range is a different matter.

 

The time it takes to counter the factory emissions of making the EV depends on the size of the battery and how the electricity you power it with is generated.  In NZ, a small EV like a Leaf or Clio will be around 3-6 months.  Something bigger like a Tesla might be more like 12-18 months.


1 | ... | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | ... | 60
Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic



Twitter and LinkedIn »



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:





News »

Withings launches three new devices to help monitor heart health from home
Posted 13-Feb-2020 20:05


Auckland start-up Yourcar matches new car buyers with dealerships
Posted 13-Feb-2020 18:05


School gardens go high tech to teach kids the importance of technology
Posted 13-Feb-2020 11:10


Malwarebytes finds Mac threats outpace Windows for the first time
Posted 13-Feb-2020 08:01


Amazon launches Echo Show 8 in Australia and New Zealand
Posted 8-Feb-2020 20:36


Vodafone New Zealand starts two year partnership with LetsPlay.Live
Posted 28-Jan-2020 11:24


Ring launches indoor-only security camera
Posted 23-Jan-2020 17:26


New report findings will help schools implement the digital technologies curriculum content
Posted 23-Jan-2020 17:25


N4L to upgrade & support wireless internet inside schools
Posted 23-Jan-2020 17:22


Netflix releases 21 Studio Ghibli works
Posted 22-Jan-2020 11:42


Vodafone integrates eSIM into device and wearable roadmap
Posted 17-Jan-2020 09:45


Do you need this camera app? Group investigates privacy implications
Posted 16-Jan-2020 03:30


JBL launches headphones range designed for gaming
Posted 13-Jan-2020 09:59


Withings introduces ScanWatch wearable combining ECG and sleep apnea detection
Posted 9-Jan-2020 18:34


NZ Police releases public app
Posted 8-Jan-2020 11:43



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.


Support Geekzone »

Our community of supporters help make Geekzone possible. Click the button below to join them.

Support Geezone on PressPatron



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.