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18715 posts

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  # 2260110 18-Jun-2019 11:07
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Aredwood: What everyone is forgetting, is that very few people actually buy brand new cars by default in NZ. Lots of new cars are actually company purchases. Lots of the Corollas especially would be bought by car rental companies.

So in effect, you guys are arguing over why people who dont buy brand new ICE cars, are not buying brand new EVs either. Even if you make new EVs the same price as new ICE cars. Why would that group of people suddenly start buying brand new?

It is a big jump in price to go from a 5 to 10 year old car, to a brand new one. And in that age bracket, the only EVs available are leafs and the occasional Mitsubishi I car. And if you can only afford to buy in the 15+ year old age bracket, there are no EVs available.

Then if you need a Ute or an SUV that is big enough to actually tow things. Even a new or near new ICE car is expensive, let alone an EV. I bought a 1992 Toyota Hilux Surf for $2K not long ago. It drives fine, is diesel and has 4 wheel drive. It will probably need a new head gasket or cylinder head soon. And who knows how long until the automatic gearbox would need rebuilding. But the cheapest option would be to just pay to rebuild the engine and gearbox. I would love to swap in a more efficient diesel engine. As Mercedes diesel engines are widely available, and they are more reliable than the 2LTE engine that is fitted in the Hilux. But then it would need to be certed. So still cheaper to just wear the extra fuel used by the 2LTE.

 

I raised the issue of towing. Easily fixed I'm told. Buy a Tesla X. For your plumbing, buy  Tesla X and covered trailer, easy, only $145k or do. That's the argument here as well! Ridiculous. While I have no doubt we all want to help save the world, paying double to save just one cars emmissions is a poor and inefficient climate change investment. If the price was close-ish to a brand new ICE, the fuel saving cost would make it worthwhile buying new. If we took up my ides to encoiurage businesses we would have heaps of used EV's in 3 years, then more in another 3 years but that got no traction


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  # 2260111 18-Jun-2019 11:09
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

So you suggest that everyone that wants an EV that is required for towing as oner example, just gets a Tesla X?

 

I read just yesterday that when you compare lifetime emissions of and ICE to an EV, it takes many years for them to equalise. You say its 6 months?

 

I never said we can only do one thing. I did say we need bang for the buck. If this country spends money on combating Climate Change, then that HAS to be best bang for your buck. Is paying you 10k, 20, 35k for one vehicle going to be good value?

 

 

Nope, that's not what I said.  I was just correcting you when you said there wasn't an EV that could do what you wanted to do.  Whether it's in your price range is a different matter.

 

The time it takes to counter the factory emissions of making the EV depends on the size of the battery and how the electricity you power it with is generated.  In NZ, a small EV like a Leaf or Clio will be around 3-6 months.  Something bigger like a Tesla might be more like 12-18 months.

 

 

You forgot about the 20 tonne to create the battery set. Not everyone buys a Tesla

 

Yes there is a Tesla X at 145k to tow my trailer or boat or horse. Easy


 
 
 
 


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Ultimate Geek


  # 2260116 18-Jun-2019 11:24
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tdgeek:

 

You forgot about the 20 tonne to create the battery set. Not everyone buys a Tesla

 

Yes there is a Tesla X at 145k to tow my trailer or boat or horse. Easy

 

 

As discussed in another thread, the 20 tonne figure is fiction.  


556 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2260126 18-Jun-2019 11:45
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Aredwood: What everyone is forgetting, is that very few people actually buy brand new cars by default in NZ. Lots of new cars are actually company purchases. Lots of the Corollas especially would be bought by car rental companies.

So in effect, you guys are arguing over why people who dont buy brand new ICE cars, are not buying brand new EVs either. Even if you make new EVs the same price as new ICE cars. Why would that group of people suddenly start buying brand new?

It is a big jump in price to go from a 5 to 10 year old car, to a brand new one. And in that age bracket, the only EVs available are leafs and the occasional Mitsubishi I car. And if you can only afford to buy in the 15+ year old age bracket, there are no EVs available.

Then if you need a Ute or an SUV that is big enough to actually tow things. Even a new or near new ICE car is expensive, let alone an EV. I bought a 1992 Toyota Hilux Surf for $2K not long ago. It drives fine, is diesel and has 4 wheel drive. It will probably need a new head gasket or cylinder head soon. And who knows how long until the automatic gearbox would need rebuilding. But the cheapest option would be to just pay to rebuild the engine and gearbox. I would love to swap in a more efficient diesel engine. As Mercedes diesel engines are widely available, and they are more reliable than the 2LTE engine that is fitted in the Hilux. But then it would need to be certed. So still cheaper to just wear the extra fuel used by the 2LTE.

 

At least for me, my arguments had never assumed that we would be trying to push people in the market for buying a second hand vehicle to buy a brand new vehicle.  Rather, my argument has been to push those that are buying a new vehicle away from buying a new ICE and instead buying a new EV.  We can't have a second hand market for EVs without some people buying new EVs.  Importing second hand EVs is going to become trickier as Japan and NZ seem to be diverging in the connector that each country is standardizing.

 

Yeah, the UTE and SUV EV market is pretty limited right now and towing is pretty much limited to just the Tesla Model X right now. It's not going to always be this way as Ford and GMC both have EV versions of their utes and SUVs on the way in the next few years, and Rivian and Tesla have new ute and SUV models on the way too.


1556 posts

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  # 2260128 18-Jun-2019 11:49
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tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

Saw a 2017/2018 MY Leaf charging at the public stations at North West last weekend. Looks like a big step up from the bubble-hatch 2011-style. 

 

If the incentives come in, that would be my first port of call. 

 

 

GV, you are a political person, as in knowledgeable in politics. Where would you see these cash incentives being funded from?

 

 

Profits from Light Rail operations? 


18715 posts

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  # 2260143 18-Jun-2019 12:03
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

You forgot about the 20 tonne to create the battery set. Not everyone buys a Tesla

 

Yes there is a Tesla X at 145k to tow my trailer or boat or horse. Easy

 

 

As discussed in another thread, the 20 tonne figure is fiction.  

 

 

Its not fiction you agreed with that. You based that on Tesla who uses green energy to make the batteries, not everyone does


18715 posts

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  # 2260147 18-Jun-2019 12:05
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GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

Saw a 2017/2018 MY Leaf charging at the public stations at North West last weekend. Looks like a big step up from the bubble-hatch 2011-style. 

 

If the incentives come in, that would be my first port of call. 

 

 

GV, you are a political person, as in knowledgeable in politics. Where would you see these cash incentives being funded from?

 

 

Profits from Light Rail operations? 

 

 

Ok, that's 3 EV's sorted! I'll make sure one of them is Mr OB's!


 
 
 
 


556 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2260185 18-Jun-2019 12:58
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tdgeek:

 

Its not fiction you agreed with that. You based that on Tesla who uses green energy to make the batteries, not everyone does

 

 

No, I'm pretty sure I was clear that it was fiction.  Tesla was the example I happened to use since the 20 tonne figure was for a 100kW battery, which until recently Tesla was the only one making a battery pack that big.


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  # 2260186 18-Jun-2019 13:00
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

Its not fiction you agreed with that. You based that on Tesla who uses green energy to make the batteries, not everyone does

 

 

No, I'm pretty sure I was clear that it was fiction.  Tesla was the example I happened to use since the 20 tonne figure was for a 100kW battery, which until recently Tesla was the only one making a battery pack that big.

 

 

Rose coloured glasses, mate, don't worry about it


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  # 2262179 21-Jun-2019 19:16
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In the discussion about new vs used, what Tesla has been seeing is people stepping up to new who would ordinarily have bought a used car.

I'm one of those. Until I bought an EV I was "Mr Ten years old and $10,000".....and that principle had served me very well for a long time. But, to go electric, I had to lean into it more to get something useful and current.....so in 2016 I bought a 6 month old 30kWh LEAF Tekna (top trim level) from the UK for $45,000. Easily more than 3 times what I had ever spent on a car before. I've driven that car for almost 3 years and 102,500km  now and confirmed I'm sticking with EVs.

My next purchase is going to be a Tesla Model 3. I have a house I need to sell first and it's going on the market in a week or two. Butonce it;s sold....I'm buying the Model 3. It will be first NEW car I've ever bought....and I'm not as young as I used to be. It will have at least 400km range and last at least a decade and probably a lot more.....assuming I keep it that long.

I'm that guy: a former ICE driver who only ever bought used....who will stretch to a new car to get the best possible EV (for less than crazy money.... as in around $75k, not $140k) as soon as possible.

It would be nice if there were purchase incentives....but it looks like those are further down the road when there is more choice and the emissions targets have been set by the new commission...and the govt of the day then has to implement policy to meet those targets. That's my current theory anyway. It's obvious someone in the 3-party government blocked EV incentives....for now....that go beyond the RUC exemption (which has saved me over $7,000 already, by the way, so it's not trivial).







_____________________________________________________________________
If you order a Tesla, click my referral code below to order your car and get free stuff. 

 

My Tesla referral code: https://ts.la/steve52356




1255 posts

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  # 2263000 23-Jun-2019 17:20
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https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2019/06/why-is-government-dragging-its-wheels-on-electric-cars.html

 

From the above:

 

In 2018 just 1.7 percent of imports were electric, and they currently make up just 0.3 percent of our fleet.

 

Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter and Climate Change Minister James Shaw, both from the Green Party, are responsible for developing the Government's EV strategy. Both spent 2018 promising an EV strategy would be released by September of that year, but now they won't even say if it will be released in 2019.

 

When asked by Newshub Nation whether the deadline could be met in months, or even next year, Shaw replied: "I couldn't tell you."

 

So, why the hold-up?

 

"There are things we could do pretty quickly, but they could have a negative effect on low-income households," says Shaw.

 

What Shaw is referring to is a feebate scheme where a levy on petrol and diesel vehicles is used to subsidise electric vehicles.

 

"You can imagine, for example, a poor Mangere family without great public transport options, quite a long way out of town, really does rely on their petrol vehicle and doesn't have the money to go electric because the up-front purchase cost is so high," he says.

 

"They're in a position where they're going to be buying a cheap second-hand car and at the moment their only option is a combustion engine vehicle.

 

"So we're mindful that any transition has to be of equal or greater benefit for people who are in those circumstances, as well as urban middle-class families with choices."

 

 


1707 posts

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  # 2263003 23-Jun-2019 17:31
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frednz:

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2019/06/why-is-government-dragging-its-wheels-on-electric-cars.html

 

From the above:

 

In 2018 just 1.7 percent of imports were electric, and they currently make up just 0.3 percent of our fleet.

 

Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter and Climate Change Minister James Shaw, both from the Green Party, are responsible for developing the Government's EV strategy. Both spent 2018 promising an EV strategy would be released by September of that year, but now they won't even say if it will be released in 2019.

 

When asked by Newshub Nation whether the deadline could be met in months, or even next year, Shaw replied: "I couldn't tell you."

 

So, why the hold-up?

 

"There are things we could do pretty quickly, but they could have a negative effect on low-income households," says Shaw.

 

What Shaw is referring to is a feebate scheme where a levy on petrol and diesel vehicles is used to subsidise electric vehicles.

 

"You can imagine, for example, a poor Mangere family without great public transport options, quite a long way out of town, really does rely on their petrol vehicle and doesn't have the money to go electric because the up-front purchase cost is so high," he says.

 

"They're in a position where they're going to be buying a cheap second-hand car and at the moment their only option is a combustion engine vehicle.

 

"So we're mindful that any transition has to be of equal or greater benefit for people who are in those circumstances, as well as urban middle-class families with choices."

 

 

 

 

Shock horror.  Its politically unpalatable to save the planet at the cost of votes.  Nine years in opposition to work out A policy - and 2 more years of still trying to work out a policy. That is appalling.  Nuclear free moment indeed - all talk and no real action. 


18715 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2263016 23-Jun-2019 18:13
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Linuxluver:

 

In the discussion about new vs used, what Tesla has been seeing is people stepping up to new who would ordinarily have bought a used car.

I'm one of those. Until I bought an EV I was "Mr Ten years old and $10,000".....and that principle had served me very well for a long time. But, to go electric, I had to lean into it more to get something useful and current.....so in 2016 I bought a 6 month old 30kWh LEAF Tekna (top trim level) from the UK for $45,000. Easily more than 3 times what I had ever spent on a car before. I've driven that car for almost 3 years and 102,500km  now and confirmed I'm sticking with EVs.

My next purchase is going to be a Tesla Model 3. I have a house I need to sell first and it's going on the market in a week or two. Butonce it;s sold....I'm buying the Model 3. It will be first NEW car I've ever bought....and I'm not as young as I used to be. It will have at least 400km range and last at least a decade and probably a lot more.....assuming I keep it that long.

I'm that guy: a former ICE driver who only ever bought used....who will stretch to a new car to get the best possible EV (for less than crazy money.... as in around $75k, not $140k) as soon as possible.

It would be nice if there were purchase incentives....but it looks like those are further down the road when there is more choice and the emissions targets have been set by the new commission...and the govt of the day then has to implement policy to meet those targets. That's my current theory anyway. It's obvious someone in the 3-party government blocked EV incentives....for now....that go beyond the RUC exemption (which has saved me over $7,000 already, by the way, so it's not trivial).



 

 

I get that. Ive also never bought used. We bought a Euro, 6 months old, 18000 km, for 30 k cash, Still have it. We can afford new but while I would LOVE a contribution, I can't really justify it. 


18715 posts

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  # 2263030 23-Jun-2019 18:24
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ockel:

 

frednz:

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2019/06/why-is-government-dragging-its-wheels-on-electric-cars.html

 

From the above:

 

In 2018 just 1.7 percent of imports were electric, and they currently make up just 0.3 percent of our fleet.

 

Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter and Climate Change Minister James Shaw, both from the Green Party, are responsible for developing the Government's EV strategy. Both spent 2018 promising an EV strategy would be released by September of that year, but now they won't even say if it will be released in 2019.

 

When asked by Newshub Nation whether the deadline could be met in months, or even next year, Shaw replied: "I couldn't tell you."

 

So, why the hold-up?

 

"There are things we could do pretty quickly, but they could have a negative effect on low-income households," says Shaw.

 

What Shaw is referring to is a feebate scheme where a levy on petrol and diesel vehicles is used to subsidise electric vehicles.

 

"You can imagine, for example, a poor Mangere family without great public transport options, quite a long way out of town, really does rely on their petrol vehicle and doesn't have the money to go electric because the up-front purchase cost is so high," he says.

 

"They're in a position where they're going to be buying a cheap second-hand car and at the moment their only option is a combustion engine vehicle.

 

"So we're mindful that any transition has to be of equal or greater benefit for people who are in those circumstances, as well as urban middle-class families with choices."

 

 

 

 

Shock horror.  Its politically unpalatable to save the planet at the cost of votes.  Nine years in opposition to work out A policy - and 2 more years of still trying to work out a policy. That is appalling.  Nuclear free moment indeed - all talk and no real action. 

 

 

Appalling? Thats BS.

 

What do you suggest? Its not cool to say we want to hklelp bit no money/ Thats NZ, we are small, not Brunei.

 

If you feel that we can and shoukd have a BIG EV policy, I have bio issue with that. Give everyone 20,000 cash, no issue, but tell me how we pay for it.

 

I get tired of climate change wannabees feeling that we just do THIS and that fixes everything. If you want the Govt to print off money, just say so. Believe it or not, and despite that we all want to, we cant just make anything happen. 

 

Please tel me what National will do? I am well aware of their 353 polices on climate change.... (as if) We all want climate change initiatives, but you seem to only want to participate in anti Govt rant. Surprising given the Opposition climate change stable.  

 

There is another forum topic for that


556 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2263043 23-Jun-2019 19:21
Send private message

frednz:

 

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/shows/2019/06/why-is-government-dragging-its-wheels-on-electric-cars.html

 

From the above:

 

In 2018 just 1.7 percent of imports were electric, and they currently make up just 0.3 percent of our fleet.

 

Associate Transport Minister Julie Anne Genter and Climate Change Minister James Shaw, both from the Green Party, are responsible for developing the Government's EV strategy. Both spent 2018 promising an EV strategy would be released by September of that year, but now they won't even say if it will be released in 2019.

 

When asked by Newshub Nation whether the deadline could be met in months, or even next year, Shaw replied: "I couldn't tell you."

 

So, why the hold-up?

 

"There are things we could do pretty quickly, but they could have a negative effect on low-income households," says Shaw.

 

What Shaw is referring to is a feebate scheme where a levy on petrol and diesel vehicles is used to subsidise electric vehicles.

 

"You can imagine, for example, a poor Mangere family without great public transport options, quite a long way out of town, really does rely on their petrol vehicle and doesn't have the money to go electric because the up-front purchase cost is so high," he says.

 

"They're in a position where they're going to be buying a cheap second-hand car and at the moment their only option is a combustion engine vehicle.

 

"So we're mindful that any transition has to be of equal or greater benefit for people who are in those circumstances, as well as urban middle-class families with choices."

 

 

 

 

I'm surprised figuring out a way not to impact low income households is a struggle.  Going the Sweden way and putting the feebate on new/new to NZ cars and then collecting on those cars on a yearly basis would have very little impact on those low income households since buying true second hand cars would be exempted from it.


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