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13437 posts

Uber Geek
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  Reply # 2095720 24-Sep-2018 18:52
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GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

alasta:

 

Given the state of the NZ vehicle fleet I would have thought that getting the clapped out old bangers off the roads would be the most effective way to reduce emissions, especially old diesel four wheel drives.

 

Removing the oldest vehicles from the fleet would also have a positive safety outcome.

 

 

A good idea, how would you do that? Tax the lower income earners? 

 

 

Surely everyone driving an old car is just doing it for the hipster cred right? 

 

 

Lol probably! These days old Jap cars are dirt cheap and they will run forever. I see no issue with older cars. Cheap, still economical. 

 

 

Your can't depreciate if it's already worthless meme goes here. 

 

 

Unsure if you are being sarcy or not. For those that are on lower incomes an old Jap car is a very efficient buy. Back in the day it was useless Holden and Ford tanks that were useless, costly to run, and big repairs every WOF. Dont also forget the weekly oil popup. 


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 2095766 24-Sep-2018 20:01
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alasta:

 

Given the state of the NZ vehicle fleet I would have thought that getting the clapped out old bangers off the roads would be the most effective way to reduce emissions, especially old diesel four wheel drives.

 

Removing the oldest vehicles from the fleet would also have a positive safety outcome.

 

 

Too true.  Unfortunately,  the Government wants to stop the county becoming a dumping ground for other countries old ICE vehicles, even thou they are more environmentally friendly than the clapped out old bangers we have here now.  I suspect the government are going to slap tariffs on ICE imports so the middle & upper classes can get subsidized EVs.  This will increase the price of modern ICE vehicles and decrease the replacement rate of the clapped out old bangers.  The end game will be the opposite of what alasta suggests.  Dam shame.




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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2095783 24-Sep-2018 20:18
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Dinga96:

 

When the announcement is made sooner rather than later now it would appear, we have a slight problem.

 

No actual EVs!

 

I can see a lot of people going on the waiting list.

 

I think this happened just after WWII ,and now it's about to happen all over again.

 

 

Yes, consider the situation we now have in NZ with the new Hyundai Kona electric vehicles which have a range of more than 400kms. Some people who ordered a Kona EV in July and paid a deposit, still haven't received delivery and when they do, it's an Irish specd Kona which doesn't have NZ maps installed.

 

Now, if you had signed a few months ago an order form for an $80,000 Elite Hyundai Kona 64 kWh EV, would you cancel the order because the price may come down to $70,000 after the new Government subsidy kicks in? If you do pay the full $80,000 for your Kona and the price drops by $10,000, you face an immediate loss in resale value of $10,000.

 

If you cancel your order and wait for the subsidy to kick in, because of the world-wide shortage of Kona EVs, you could wait months and months before you get one at a subsidised price. It's reported that some overseas countries have already sold out their allocation of Konas for the whole of next year!

 

And this is despite the Elite petrol model Kona costing $42,000 in comparison with the EV Elite Kona costing $80,000 plus at least $2,000 for a home charging unit. So the "world" is demanding new EVs, but the supply is already way short of what is needed and the prices are currently way too high in comparison with "equivalent" petrol vehicles.

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2095836 24-Sep-2018 22:08
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Wow, seems to be an emotive topic. Reality is that NZ has signed the Paris accord to drop our emissions.

If we ignore agriculture. (Pretty hard to do anything about that quickly, unless we want ditch farming an be a seriously poor country), transport is the next biggest emissions source (34% or remaining emissions).

Within transport, electrifying the light vehicle fleet is one of the lowest hanging fruit. (especially given our green power grid). People are already buying EV's with mainly just the temporary RUC exemption as an incentive. The government is already funding EV promotion, so their are only really carrot & stick approaches left to step up uptake.

To petrol & diesel vehicle owners that are upset. Be thankful that you benefit from a raft of subsidies. Everything from General taxation paying for many new roads (such as RONS) to Rates paying for roughly half of local roads, to minimum car-parking requirements forcing the cost of carparking to be hidden in general development costs.

Also note that a incentive pack is probiably the least intrusive option on the table. Consider what other countries have done:

 

  • Zero emission mandate: Require all medium to high volume car brands offer and sell to make up a certain percentage of their sales from zero emission vehicles.
  • Corporate average fleet economy: sinking ceiling on average vehicle emissions across entire brand. Good-luck to any brand doesn't have as competitive efficient smaller car offering to offset their large engine cars.
  • Ban of vehicles using a particular fuel time from cities / city centers
  • Really high fossil fuel taxes europe
  • Taxes on new vehicles by emissions band (Europe, California "Gas Guzzler tax")

Regarding what the incentives will look like, many peer area's (Japan, UK, USA, Qubec etc) offer cira NZ$10,000 subsidies for purchase of New EV's. The biggest criticism of this is the regressive nature of the subsidies, as they can only be directly claimed by those in a financial position (i.e. middle class and up) to buy a new car. Very easy to ask why the buyer of a NZ$250,000 fully loaded Tesla S or X needs government help. That said, the subsidies do push down used EV prices somewhat.

Reading between the lines, our government is keen to avoid that stigma.

 

James Shaw via newshub:

 

What we're trying to do is get a package that incentivises your middle class people to be able to do that, but also ensures that low income families aren't left behind,

 



I will pick we will see some combination of the following in the package:

 

  • Extension of current RUC exemption (currently expires in 2021)
  • Some king of purchase / vehicle registration subsidy, that will include both New and used cars (once only, on first registration)
  • Possible government backed finance scheme for electric vehicles
  • Mild support of pubic fast charging.
  • Step up laws to ease charge point installs in newer homes. (i.e. require high current wiring or conduit be run to each garage bay / off street car-park for new builds)
  • Step up current laws to make it easier for (residential and commercial) tenants, plus owners in multi unit dwellings to have EV charging points installed. (A few areas in north america have passed laws that stop body corps from blocking owners from installing wiring via common property to their parking spaces.)
  • Single occupancy privileges in T2 / T3 lanes for pure electric vehicles (no Plug in hybrids, or range extended cars) -even though they just ended the Auckland trial, and declared it a failure.


NZ is somewhat unusual as a first world country as we import a lot of used cars. If we do have subsidies on used imports, it means people will be able to double dip. i.e. buy a car ex UK or japan that has already received a subsidy, then take another one on entry to NZ. Should drive good value at lesser expense to the NZ taxpayer than subsiding only new cars to the same price level.
 

 

I think it is wishful thinking but I would be keen to see the following:

 

  • Rework of current petrol tax / ruc scheme so that when the electric vehicle exemption ends, they won't be paying 2.5 times the road tax of a prius.
  • Legislate to require new public AC chargers to be in line with the current government recommendation. (type 2 socket, which is accessible to all modern Electric cars on the market) - No more Tesla only chargers in public car-parking buildings etc. Incompatible charging standards don't make for an easy user experience.
  • Relax home charging wiring requirements to avoid expensive type B RCD. (EV supply equipment checks earth connectivity before livening any pins, so exotic RCD protection seems like overkill).
  • Give the same fringe benefit tax avoidance perks to EV's as are currently given to dual cab utes
  • Some kind of intervention to reduce electricity prices in NZ.

 

 

With the Hyundai Kona 60kWh (400km) now for sale in NZ, historic worries about range will become more muted. Their are more cars from other brands to follow with similar range, ans sub $150k price. In particular the 60kWh Nissan leaf in 2019 (maybe as grey market import only), and the Tesla model 3 (prob in 2020).

All the above cars have liquid cooled batteries that should degrade way less than the current nissan leaf.


IcI

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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2095838 24-Sep-2018 22:17
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GV27:

 

Surely everyone driving an old car is just doing it for the hipster cred right? 

 

Looks like it!


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2095840 24-Sep-2018 22:27
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frednz:

So the "world" is demanding new EVs, but the supply is already way short of what is needed and the prices are currently way too high in comparison with "equivalent" petrol vehicles.

 



Should also note that where most of our vehicles come from (Japan, and thailand for utes) arn't that keen on EV's.

Japanese brands like Toyota are still clinging to Hydrogen a a low emission fuel.

Doing what we do now (Import lots of used EV's from japan) isn't salable. in 2017 we imported 2233 used pure electric cars (mostly leaf's from japan). Japan pure EV sales have hovered at around 13,000 - 16,000 from 2012 - 2017. Obviously scaling up by a factor of 10 would run dry the supply of used EV's from japan.

As such, we can continue to take a few used EV's from japan, need to start buying new cars to really scale up. And diversify from Japanese brands to other's that are more keen on EV's.

[edit] - also should note that rental companies are some of the biggest buyers of new cars in NZ, especially for corolla sized hatchbacks. Would be great to get them on board, but will be a harder sell as EV's offer less flexibility than petrol cars, and their customers pay for fuel.


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  Reply # 2095848 24-Sep-2018 23:07
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So.... Green and expensive - bad short term experience (higher costs, subsidies will benefit the well off and hurt the poor)

 

Or

 

Carry on until actual market forces mean electric is seen as an attractive alternative. (Will it ever?) Less regulation (good), no stigma of subsidies clearly being for the well off, and we get to keep the flexibility of dead plant matter for a while longer.

 

I want an EV, but I am under no illusion that it's currently cost effective, more convenient, cheaper or greener than a decent 2nd hand petrol or diesel vehicle.

 

Cheers - N

 

 


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 2095856 24-Sep-2018 23:30
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I'm not sure why subsidies are needed.  According to many EV owners in the various threads on GZ, you save a fortune with an EV; the drive experience is second to none and also people feel good about doing their bit for the environment.  

 

You'd think, being such a great product, that they'd sell themselves.  Like the original car vs horse and buggy or a refrigerator vs a food safe or a TV vs the wireless.  

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2095879 25-Sep-2018 07:32
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Bobdn:

 

I'm not sure why subsidies are needed.  According to many EV owners in the various threads on GZ, you save a fortune with an EV; the drive experience is second to none and also people feel good about doing their bit for the environment.  

 

You'd think, being such a great product, that they'd sell themselves.  Like the original car vs horse and buggy or a refrigerator vs a food safe or a TV vs the wireless.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

35k for a new car is fine. That's your standard 4 or 5 door small medium normal brand car. Less for smaller, bit more for bigger. $60,000+ isnt

 

You dont save a fortune. You are paying a $30,000 premium, which is essentially paying in advance, $30,000 worth of fuel. There is an opportunity cost of 3% bank interest or 5% mortgage interest, that its costing to buy the $30,000 worth of fuel in advance. That's $900 or $1500 per annum. You then need to factor in battery degradation and replacement, so add an annual cost there. If this car was $40,000, a great buy, but it isn't $40,000     


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  Reply # 2095880 25-Sep-2018 07:36
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Scott3:

 

Wow, seems to be an emotive topic. Reality is that NZ has signed the Paris accord to drop our emissions.

 

 

I don't think its emotive here at all. Everyone here thinks EV's are good. But the premium cost, and the problem of not being able to import a large number of pre owned EV's (as they don't exist in large numbers) means that while a good idea for everyone, and the environment and the past and present Govt, the numbers do not work


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  Reply # 2095940 25-Sep-2018 08:23
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It will be interesting to see if EV's stay expensive. Maintenance costs are significantly reduced which cuts off an income stream for the manufacturers.





My views (except when I am looking out their windows) are not those of my employer.

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  Reply # 2095948 25-Sep-2018 08:36
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tdgeek:

 

I don't think its emotive here at all. Everyone here thinks EV's are good. But the premium cost, and the problem of not being able to import a large number of pre owned EV's (as they don't exist in large numbers) means that while a good idea for everyone, and the environment and the past and present Govt, the numbers do not work

 

 

^^^ My view exactly.

 

I also think the mainstream manufacturers are constraining supply and (enabled by subsidies) holding prices.





Mike

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  Reply # 2095965 25-Sep-2018 09:08
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tdgeek:

 

Bobdn:

 

I'm not sure why subsidies are needed.  According to many EV owners in the various threads on GZ, you save a fortune with an EV; the drive experience is second to none and also people feel good about doing their bit for the environment.  

 

You'd think, being such a great product, that they'd sell themselves.  Like the original car vs horse and buggy or a refrigerator vs a food safe or a TV vs the wireless.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

35k for a new car is fine. That's your standard 4 or 5 door small medium normal brand car. Less for smaller, bit more for bigger. $60,000+ isnt

 

You dont save a fortune. You are paying a $30,000 premium, which is essentially paying in advance, $30,000 worth of fuel. There is an opportunity cost of 3% bank interest or 5% mortgage interest, that its costing to buy the $30,000 worth of fuel in advance. That's $900 or $1500 per annum. You then need to factor in battery degradation and replacement, so add an annual cost there. If this car was $40,000, a great buy, but it isn't $40,000     

 

 

Actually you're paying at 40%-100% premium (Audi's A3 etron is a 40% premium, the Kona is almost a 100% premium to its ICE equiv).  So it makes perfect sense that you're buying a 120k Tesla - its a 60k build quality with a 100% premium for EV.  Its important to set your expectations when you sit in them.  I expected quality European build but realised it was an entry level build with the EV premium.  Same with the X - a $90k SUV it feels like and then add the premium to understand the pricing.


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  Reply # 2095972 25-Sep-2018 09:17
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tdgeek:

 

35k for a new car is fine. That's your standard 4 or 5 door small medium normal brand car. Less for smaller, bit more for bigger. $60,000+ isnt

 

 

Just to clarify, you are saying this as it relates to EV's not to cars in general right?

 

 

 

Personally, I think a 25% premium for EV would be acceptable. If I choose to be an early adopter, I think I am choosing to take a bigger than usual hit on the R&D Costs payback. Having said that, I don't think the premiums being charged are reasonable.

 

I have seen multiple people mentioning that the Subsudies have been eaten up by the manafacturers, but as far as I can tell, none of the EV prices have gone up. Is the suspicion rather than the prices haven't gone DOWN?

 

EV technology has been around a while, it should really be heading into mainstream territory by now, however, I do think there is a lack of decent range affordable practical EV cars around.


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Master Geek
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  Reply # 2095975 25-Sep-2018 09:21
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tdgeek:

 

Everyone here thinks EV's are good.

Which "everyone" and which "here" are you referring to?


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