Geekzone: technology news, blogs, forums
Guest
Welcome Guest.
You haven't logged in yet. If you don't have an account you can register now.
Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic
1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | ... | 19
13430 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2428

Trusted

  Reply # 2095980 25-Sep-2018 09:26
Send private message quote this post

networkn:

 

tdgeek:

 

35k for a new car is fine. That's your standard 4 or 5 door small medium normal brand car. Less for smaller, bit more for bigger. $60,000+ isnt

 

 

Just to clarify, you are saying this as it relates to EV's not to cars in general right?

 

 

 

Personally, I think a 25% premium for EV would be acceptable. If I choose to be an early adopter, I think I am choosing to take a bigger than usual hit on the R&D Costs payback. Having said that, I don't think the premiums being charged are reasonable.

 

I have seen multiple people mentioning that the Subsudies have been eaten up by the manafacturers, but as far as I can tell, none of the EV prices have gone up. Is the suspicion rather than the prices haven't gone DOWN?

 

EV technology has been around a while, it should really be heading into mainstream territory by now, however, I do think there is a lack of decent range affordable practical EV cars around.

 

 

pretty much, yes referring to EV's only. A new, fine, affordable car is say $35000. 25% makes it almost $44000, that's reasonable. At $50,000 its ok too, worth it.

 

The range and variety will come, but the numbers seem to high to me to get any real traction


13430 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2428

Trusted

  Reply # 2095983 25-Sep-2018 09:30
Send private message quote this post

Smithy100:

 

tdgeek:

 

Everyone here thinks EV's are good.

Which "everyone" and which "here" are you referring to?

 

 

Everyone means everyone, here means this thread. I dont recall seeing anyone that did not like an EV solution, its the cost of that solution that's the problem. If you need to tow boats and horses, travel 800km non stop, that's not the market, so those reasons don't count. This thread is about the subsidy, past and future, which means its of interest to those that want an EV, hence everyone


13430 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2428

Trusted

  Reply # 2096021 25-Sep-2018 10:29
Send private message quote this post

Natural incentives are a help

 

 

 

91 in Welly has hit 2-41 per litre. Oil prices US81 per barrel expected to go to US$100


3710 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2251

Trusted
Spark NZ

  Reply # 2096025 25-Sep-2018 10:38
Send private message quote this post

I'm just waiting for when the fuel tax is so high that people complain it's unfairly impacting low income earners... Of course the solution at that point will be to levy more charges on the comparatively rich EV owners and reduce the fuel tax :-)

 

Cheers - N


3391 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 923


  Reply # 2096027 25-Sep-2018 10:43
Send private message quote this post

tdgeek:

 

Natural incentives are a help

 

91 in Welly has hit 2-41 per litre. Oil prices US81 per barrel expected to go to US$100

 

 

That's Z trying it on, lets see if others follow,

 

But irrespective there is a 4 cent rise on Sunday nite as the higher national excise tax kicks in

 

according to gaspy Mobil K Road and Z newton in Auckland at 2.39


13430 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2428

Trusted

  Reply # 2096032 25-Sep-2018 10:49
Send private message quote this post

wellygary:

 

tdgeek:

 

Natural incentives are a help

 

91 in Welly has hit 2-41 per litre. Oil prices US81 per barrel expected to go to US$100

 

 

That's Z trying it on, lets see if others follow,

 

But irrespective there is a 4 cent rise on Sunday nite as the higher national excise tax kicks in

 

according to gaspy Mobil K Road and Z newton in Auckland at 2.39

 

 

Wanaka was 2-50 earlier this month

 

The EV thing is a bit of a pity as without high production, and with no market to import pre owned in quantity, its a dead duck. If there were no issues bringing them in with big numbers, new and used, there would be a good few creative ways to incentive and subsidise the standard Toyota/Nissan/Honda/Hyundai markets. I'm not in favour of subsidies for upmarket vehicles, there would need to be a threshold. Gas prices or not gas prices, there is actually no solution, thew cars are not there to bring in




956 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 173


  Reply # 2096048 25-Sep-2018 11:20
Send private message quote this post

tdgeek:

 

... I'm not in favour of subsidies for upmarket vehicles, there would need to be a threshold. Gas prices or not gas prices, there is actually no solution, thew cars are not there to bring in

 

 

A lot of people say that buyers of new EVs must be reasonably wealthy, so why have EV subsidies as the wealthy can afford the high new prices. However, I know a few "reasonably wealthy" people who when told they need to pay, for example, $80,000 to buy an elite Hyundai Kona EV, think this is ridiculous and have bought a nice new Mercedes, Audi, or BMW petrol car instead.

 

So, even expensive EVs need subsidies if people are going to buy them. Then when the new EVs are sold, they are more likely to be affordable for the second-hand buyers. It has to be remembered that, just because some people have a lot of money, they aren't necessarily going to pay inflated prices for things, so if we want people to buy new EVs, their prices have to be similar to equivalent petrol vehicles.

 

As a lot of others have pointed out, it's no good NZ relying on used EV imports to make up the numbers. Sales of EVs aren't going to take off unless the prices of new EVs are similar to equivalent new petrol vehicles. So pressure has to be put on the manufacturers to reduce EV prices as soon as possible, despite the research and development costs they have incurred to manufacture EVs.


386 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 50


  Reply # 2096050 25-Sep-2018 11:21
Send private message quote this post

There will be a tipping point when the cost of EV's gets dragged into line and should in theory be lower than the ICE equivalent. For a couple reasons, the Chinese are leading the way in EV sales and volumes, there are some big numbers starting to come out of China (by company's you have never heard of) and it wont take long before quality of their builds is on par with the rest of the world. They will force the others down.  2nd reason is that the big players VW, BMW, Nissan etc are inventing billions into re-tooling and EV production plants. They wont be able to keep prices high for long, their business will demand volume to pay for the investment of their new production lines. Also a side note I see Mitsubishi have dropped the price of their Outlander PHEV so its inline with petrol and diesel models. 


13430 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2428

Trusted

  Reply # 2096058 25-Sep-2018 11:30
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

... I'm not in favour of subsidies for upmarket vehicles, there would need to be a threshold. Gas prices or not gas prices, there is actually no solution, thew cars are not there to bring in

 

 

A lot of people say that buyers of new EVs must be reasonably wealthy, so why have EV subsidies as the wealthy can afford the high new prices. However, I know a few "reasonably wealthy" people who when told they need to pay, for example, $80,000 to buy an elite Hyundai Kona EV, think this is ridiculous and have bought a nice new Mercedes, Audi, or BMW petrol car instead.

 

So, even expensive EVs need subsidies if people are going to buy them. Then when the new EVs are sold, they are more likely to be affordable for the second-hand buyers. It has to be remembered that, just because some people have a lot of money, they aren't necessarily going to pay inflated prices for things, so if we want people to buy new EVs, their prices have to be similar to equivalent petrol vehicles.

 

As a lot of others have pointed out, it's no good NZ relying on used EV imports to make up the numbers. Sales of EVs aren't going to take off unless the prices of new EVs are similar to equivalent new petrol vehicles. So pressure has to be put on the manufacturers to reduce EV prices as soon as possible, despite the research and development costs they have incurred to manufacture EVs.

 

 

Id rather focus on a Toyota type EV than an Audi type. Subsidies can be there, then reduce once you get past the "normal new car"

 

I feel that its a great idea to focus on used EV imports. Lower price, more tyres on the road. But they dont exist (in large numbers)


2459 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 1205

Lifetime subscriber

  Reply # 2096059 25-Sep-2018 11:31
Send private message quote this post

It's kind of interesting, though, that total cost of ownership for a new EV is not much more than for a new ICE, and perhaps less given the direction of fuel prices, and the probably cheaper maintenance. The problem isn't so much the price, as the range, the charging time, etc.


1396 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 201


  Reply # 2096062 25-Sep-2018 11:33
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

... I'm not in favour of subsidies for upmarket vehicles, there would need to be a threshold. Gas prices or not gas prices, there is actually no solution, thew cars are not there to bring in

 

 

A lot of people say that buyers of new EVs must be reasonably wealthy, so why have EV subsidies as the wealthy can afford the high new prices. However, I know a few "reasonably wealthy" people who when told they need to pay, for example, $80,000 to buy an elite Hyundai Kona EV, think this is ridiculous and have bought a nice new Mercedes, Audi, or BMW petrol car instead.

 

So, even expensive EVs need subsidies if people are going to buy them. Then when the new EVs are sold, they are more likely to be affordable for the second-hand buyers. It has to be remembered that, just because some people have a lot of money, they aren't necessarily going to pay inflated prices for things, so if we want people to buy new EVs, their prices have to be similar to equivalent petrol vehicles.

 

As a lot of others have pointed out, it's no good NZ relying on used EV imports to make up the numbers. Sales of EVs aren't going to take off unless the prices of new EVs are similar to equivalent new petrol vehicles. So pressure has to be put on the manufacturers to reduce EV prices as soon as possible, despite the research and development costs they have incurred to manufacture EVs.

 

 

At this time EV's are targeted towards those that have either a personal ideology or those that want to present an image.  In classic marketing manufacturers are charging a super premium to extract maximum profits from that 5% of the population that are willing to pay for that marginal utility.  Think iPhone XS vs XR (stripped down there is very little different but the price differential is huge).  Extract the super premium from those willing to pay.

 

As that segment of the market becomes saturated then volumes and prices will adjust to maximise the profit from the fast follower segment.  The interesting aspect will be whether prices of EV's come down or whether the prices of ICE's increase to reduce the differential.  Competition (and it'll be easy to see someone blink on this) would suggest the former but its not inconceivable to see the auto sector want to restore profitability through this platform shift. 

 

Subsidies will only transfer profit from the government to the manufacturer.  Its artificial and a false demand tool.


13430 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2428

Trusted

  Reply # 2096063 25-Sep-2018 11:34
Send private message quote this post

langi27:

 

There will be a tipping point when the cost of EV's gets dragged into line and should in theory be lower than the ICE equivalent. For a couple reasons, the Chinese are leading the way in EV sales and volumes, there are some big numbers starting to come out of China (by company's you have never heard of) and it wont take long before quality of their builds is on par with the rest of the world. They will force the others down.  2nd reason is that the big players VW, BMW, Nissan etc are inventing billions into re-tooling and EV production plants. They wont be able to keep prices high for long, their business will demand volume to pay for the investment of their new production lines. Also a side note I see Mitsubishi have dropped the price of their Outlander PHEV so its inline with petrol and diesel models. 

 

 

They need high prices to recover R+D, but bolded might be a game changer. They already make quality cars as Peugoet and probably others have plants there, under supervision. With no sales to USA (hopefully :-)  ) might be plenty for us




956 posts

Ultimate Geek
+1 received by user: 173


  Reply # 2096070 25-Sep-2018 11:39
3 people support this post
Send private message quote this post

tdgeek:

 

Id rather focus on a Toyota type EV than an Audi type. Subsidies can be there, then reduce once you get past the "normal new car"

 

I feel that its a great idea to focus on used EV imports. Lower price, more tyres on the road. But they dont exist (in large numbers)

 

 

People who have bought second-hand EVs have faced a raft of problems that wouldn't have occurred with NZ-New EVs which have manufacturers' warranties. Second-hand EV imports aren't the long-term answer, we really need to focus on getting the price of new EVs down to a reasonable level!


13430 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2428

Trusted

  Reply # 2096075 25-Sep-2018 11:42
One person supports this post
Send private message quote this post

ockel:

 

 

 

Subsidies will only transfer profit from the government to the manufacturer.  Its artificial and a false demand tool.

 

 

Its exactly that and unashameably it is. Its a temporary tool to fast track tyres onto roads. Then its dropped as market forces and supply can work


13430 posts

Uber Geek
+1 received by user: 2428

Trusted

  Reply # 2096095 25-Sep-2018 12:01
Send private message quote this post

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Id rather focus on a Toyota type EV than an Audi type. Subsidies can be there, then reduce once you get past the "normal new car"

 

I feel that its a great idea to focus on used EV imports. Lower price, more tyres on the road. But they dont exist (in large numbers)

 

 

People who have bought second-hand EVs have faced a raft of problems that wouldn't have occurred with NZ-New EVs which have manufacturers' warranties. Second-hand EV imports aren't the long-term answer, we really need to focus on getting the price of new EVs down to a reasonable level!

 

 

You mean the Leaf. If we had new Leafs we would have had those issues for our NZ Leaf. How many people can afford a new car? How many can afford a used car? They are a gulf apart. Then it becomes a subsidy for a few which goes against the desire to ramp them up. So, it becomes non important to most, a niche market, who cares. Look for a very modern ICE to last me for the next 10 years and so on. You need to look at all avenues. If nothing was done, it would take a LONG time to establish any meaningful numbers here.

 

 


1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | ... | 19
Filter this topic showing only the reply marked as answer View this topic in a long page with up to 500 replies per page Create new topic

Twitter »

Follow us to receive Twitter updates when new discussions are posted in our forums:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when news items and blogs are posted in our frontpage:



Follow us to receive Twitter updates when tech item prices are listed in our price comparison site:



Geekzone Live »

Try automatic live updates from Geekzone directly in your browser, without refreshing the page, with Geekzone Live now.



Are you subscribed to our RSS feed? You can download the latest headlines and summaries from our stories directly to your computer or smartphone by using a feed reader.

Alternatively, you can receive a daily email with Geekzone updates.