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626 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2276049 13-Jul-2019 19:13
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Where are the EV's that will solve this issue? Nowhere. If you can provide evidence that there're 500,000 EV;s at ports in NZ with the same on the way continually to update our fleet then I agree. There isn't though. So we can act NOW and reduce emissions from ICE vehicles, but you dont support reducing emissions.You only support EV subsidies.

 

 

If somebody supports EV discounts, this is mainly because they want people to buy EVs so that this will help meet NZ's emission targets, and I think this is the view of most of the people who have posted to this thread.

 

However, there is less support for the view that the Government should provide discounts for some petrol vehicles, and no other country in the world has done this.

 

 

The point is that a Hybrid helps achieve the emission goals, albeit not as well as a pure EV.  The hybrid is however much more affordable and readily available than any EV, and is therefore much more likely to adopted by the low to middle income earners. 

 

An $8K subsidy on a $60-$80K EV vehicle will not result in low-to-middle income earners buying an EV, therefore we won't see a high adoption rate. 

 

A smaller subsidy on a Hybrid (either standard or PHEV variant) will make a big difference to emissions due to the far superior tailpipe emissions compared to a standard ICE, and much higher adoption rate; more models are readily available, and at a much better price point.

 

Remember than a PHEV used in the daily commute, is quite likely to never engage the ICE. Should that not receive some sort of subsidy as a bridge to pure EV? 

 

What other countries have chosen to do isn’t necessarily relevant to our own decision-making process. They have different generation profiles (green v hydrocarbon), different economies, different access to EV vehicles etc.

 

The best solution would be to push everyone to a pure EV, but that's just not practical at this point in time.

 

 

 

 

 

 




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  #2276188 14-Jul-2019 09:51
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wsnz:

 

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Where are the EV's that will solve this issue? Nowhere. If you can provide evidence that there're 500,000 EV;s at ports in NZ with the same on the way continually to update our fleet then I agree. There isn't though. So we can act NOW and reduce emissions from ICE vehicles, but you dont support reducing emissions.You only support EV subsidies.

 

 

If somebody supports EV discounts, this is mainly because they want people to buy EVs so that this will help meet NZ's emission targets, and I think this is the view of most of the people who have posted to this thread.

 

However, there is less support for the view that the Government should provide discounts for some petrol vehicles, and no other country in the world has done this.

 

 

The point is that a Hybrid helps achieve the emission goals, albeit not as well as a pure EV.  The hybrid is however much more affordable and readily available than any EV, and is therefore much more likely to adopted by the low to middle income earners. 

 

 

The proposal to provide a discount for a vehicle that runs solely on petrol, such as the Suzuki Swift, has caused the most controversy. 


 
 
 
 


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  #2276239 14-Jul-2019 10:46
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Obraik:

 

tdgeek:

 

ALL of us want climate change moves, agreed? This move is a start, and any start is a good start, but its a miniscule change to emissions. Miniscule. An EV purchaser will not benefit form the 8k as they will buy anyway, a waste of money that can be used for climate change moves elsewhere. A smaller discount for a Swift will be more likely to incentivise a purchase from a 1984 Telstar to a 2020 Swift and reduce emissions. 

 

The Govt move is NOT an EV move its an emission move. Are you opposed to reducing emissions? The person that can afford an upgrade to a Swift cannot afford an overpriced  EV. So if you oppose that, you oppose emission reductions. The key is there are not 500,000 EV's at your local port awaiting delivery. ICE is here for a LONG time. Thats what you need to get your hand around. EV's are not a panacea to save the world, in fact they do almost nothing, as there are not 500,000 at the local port and millions in production. Yet we want to subsidise existing purchases. An incentive means that the subsidy will grow sales. That false here's there are already sales, and waiting lists. And people here have stated they will hold off for the cash, and in that time, happily emit CO2.

 

You are one of those people. Is it climate change or is it emissions or is it cash?

 

 

 

 

Where is this 500,000 figure coming from?

 

 

Its a pipe dream figure that would allow EV's imports to actually make a difference. EV's seem to be the panacea to climate change in NZ, bot you all just don't seem to get it. they represent sweet FA of the 3.9M light vehicles we have. They are not being shipped here ih huge volume and won't for a very long time. yet all we want to talk about is EV subsides, and criticise efforts to reduce the emissions of the 3.8M cars we have here by modernising them.

 

Someone here mentioned EV evangelises the other day, clearly that's the way it is. Some others here actually are concerned about lowering emissions


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  #2276241 14-Jul-2019 10:50
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frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Where are the EV's that will solve this issue? Nowhere. If you can provide evidence that there're 500,000 EV;s at ports in NZ with the same on the way continually to update our fleet then I agree. There isn't though. So we can act NOW and reduce emissions from ICE vehicles, but you dont support reducing emissions.You only support EV subsidies.

 

 

If somebody supports EV discounts, this is mainly because they want people to buy EVs so that this will help meet NZ's emission targets, and I think this is the view of most of the people who have posted to this thread.

 

However, there is less support for the view that the Government should provide discounts for some petrol vehicles, and no other country in the world has done this.

 

Incidentally, can you please tell us how you arrived at the figure of 500,000 EVs.

 

 

 

 

I think I can say we all agree that we want emissions reduced. EV is one part of that an right now, and the medium future, a very small part. It will remain a minuscule contribution for a very very long time. The 160,000 we import annually are ICE. Almost all. It makes perfect sense to enact moves that reduce those emissions. It makes sense to send the 1984 Telstars of this world to the scrap heap in favour of new ICE cars. As there are no EV's to replace those 160,000 annual imports. I thin thats very obvious.

 

I explained the 500,000 on the above post


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  #2276242 14-Jul-2019 10:52
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afe66: Not bringing in emission testing as part of WOF makes this hole process futile. The nasty old poorly tuned cars will continue to be used until finally beside down after many years..

 

Didn't we have that is the past? Rings a faint bell. It makes sense to set a target so owners of heaps have adequate notice to trade up or see a pink sticker.


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  #2276243 14-Jul-2019 10:57
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wsnz:

 

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Where are the EV's that will solve this issue? Nowhere. If you can provide evidence that there're 500,000 EV;s at ports in NZ with the same on the way continually to update our fleet then I agree. There isn't though. So we can act NOW and reduce emissions from ICE vehicles, but you dont support reducing emissions.You only support EV subsidies.

 

 

If somebody supports EV discounts, this is mainly because they want people to buy EVs so that this will help meet NZ's emission targets, and I think this is the view of most of the people who have posted to this thread.

 

However, there is less support for the view that the Government should provide discounts for some petrol vehicles, and no other country in the world has done this.

 

 

The point is that a Hybrid helps achieve the emission goals, albeit not as well as a pure EV.  The hybrid is however much more affordable and readily available than any EV, and is therefore much more likely to adopted by the low to middle income earners. 

 

An $8K subsidy on a $60-$80K EV vehicle will not result in low-to-middle income earners buying an EV, therefore we won't see a high adoption rate. 

 

A smaller subsidy on a Hybrid (either standard or PHEV variant) will make a big difference to emissions due to the far superior tailpipe emissions compared to a standard ICE, and much higher adoption rate; more models are readily available, and at a much better price point.

 

Remember than a PHEV used in the daily commute, is quite likely to never engage the ICE. Should that not receive some sort of subsidy as a bridge to pure EV? 

 

What other countries have chosen to do isn’t necessarily relevant to our own decision-making process. They have different generation profiles (green v hydrocarbon), different economies, different access to EV vehicles etc.

 

The best solution would be to push everyone to a pure EV, but that's just not practical at this point in time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

10/10

 

Your post is just boring, true and common sense! Every point. 

 

But if you are not praying just to the EV, some here just bury their head in the sand. I am so surprised that intelligent people cannot see that we cannot replace our car imports with 100% EV right now. And because that is a fact and will be for many years, probably 2 decades, we need to act now for any emission reductions we can


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  #2276250 14-Jul-2019 11:04
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frednz:

 

 

 

The proposal to provide a discount for a vehicle that runs solely on petrol, such as the Suzuki Swift, has caused the most controversy. 

 

 

I wouldn't call it a controversy.  A Swift is a low priced car. Circa $22,500 on road new. There is no EV to replace it as those who buy a Swift will obviously not be buying a $59000 Leaf. So, for those in that position, they can get a new ICE, that is more fuel efficient than what they have. So to those that wish to reduce emissions, it makes sense.

 

IMHO this whole move will make a very very minimal difference. But as many say, its a start. So, its just a drop in the bucket, but any start is positive. So all the measures are a start. Im not sure why they didn't include electric motorcycles and electric motor scooters. 


 
 
 
 


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Ultimate Geek


  #2276251 14-Jul-2019 11:06
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tdgeek:

Its a pipe dream figure that would allow EV's imports to actually make a difference. EV's seem to be the panacea to climate change in NZ, bot you all just don't seem to get it. they represent sweet FA of the 3.9M light vehicles we have. They are not being shipped here ih huge volume and won't for a very long time. yet all we want to talk about is EV subsides, and criticise efforts to reduce the emissions of the 3.8M cars we have here by modernising them.


Someone here mentioned EV evangelises the other day, clearly that's the way it is. Some others here actually are concerned about lowering emissions


You're being unrealistic with that number, and I'm sure you know that.

While replacing all our vehicles with EVs in a few short years would be great, no one has even suggested that as an option. What I and others in here have said is that a subsidy is needed to increase the amount of EVs that make up NZs new car sales numbers.

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  #2276254 14-Jul-2019 11:15
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Obraik:
tdgeek:

 

Its a pipe dream figure that would allow EV's imports to actually make a difference. EV's seem to be the panacea to climate change in NZ, bot you all just don't seem to get it. they represent sweet FA of the 3.9M light vehicles we have. They are not being shipped here ih huge volume and won't for a very long time. yet all we want to talk about is EV subsides, and criticise efforts to reduce the emissions of the 3.8M cars we have here by modernising them.

 

 

 

Someone here mentioned EV evangelises the other day, clearly that's the way it is. Some others here actually are concerned about lowering emissions

 


You're being unrealistic with that number, and I'm sure you know that.

While replacing all our vehicles with EVs in a few short years would be great, no one has even suggested that as an option. What I and others in here have said is that a subsidy is needed to increase the amount of EVs that make up NZs new car sales numbers.

 

Off course I am, but you can see why. If we were importing 500,000 EV's every year, this thread would not exist. What I bolded is fine. What is wrong with incentivising Suzuki Swifts? They also reduce emissions, over the 10 year old or more, car they replace. This recent Govt announcement is an emissions announcement The Swift is part of that, as are Hybrids. Unlike all EV's, Swifts and Hybrids are more affordable, so its likely they will get a decent take-up. If so, that wont affect EV's, its in addition. I'm sure there wont be to  many Tesla buyers cancelling in favour os the $1000 subsidy on a Swift. So the Governments emissions objective, gets a few wins.

 

Except my 656cc motorbike misses out for some reason. 


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Ultimate Geek


  #2276262 14-Jul-2019 11:46
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tdgeek:

Obraik:
You're being unrealistic with that number, and I'm sure you know that.

While replacing all our vehicles with EVs in a few short years would be great, no one has even suggested that as an option. What I and others in here have said is that a subsidy is needed to increase the amount of EVs that make up NZs new car sales numbers.


Off course I am, but you can see why. If we were importing 500,000 EV's every year, this thread would not exist. What I bolded is fine. What is wrong with incentivising Suzuki Swifts? They also reduce emissions, over the 10 year old or more, car they replace. This recent Govt announcement is an emissions announcement The Swift is part of that, as are Hybrids. Unlike all EV's, Swifts and Hybrids are more affordable, so its likely they will get a decent take-up. If so, that wont affect EV's, its in addition. I'm sure there wont be to  many Tesla buyers cancelling in favour os the $1000 subsidy on a Swift. So the Governments emissions objective, gets a few wins.


Except my 656cc motorbike misses out for some reason. 


I think incentivising an ICE vehicle sends the wrong message and also ultimately doesn't make a difference. Someone comparing an ICE vehicle out of the subsidy band vs one that is will be unlikely to be swayed to the subsidised ICE because it's in a completely different category to the vehicle they're considering. Anything in the ICE subsidy band is going to be low performing and likely small. Basically, what I'm saying is I don't see the subsidy on ICE vehicles attracting new buyers of that vehicle class - you're just making it cheaper for someone that was already going to buy it.

EVs on the other hand are attractive as an option to nearly all ICE buyers because they work differently and out perform the ICE vehicles in their class. Driving them has negligible impact on the environment and they're quite a lot cheaper to run. The only stopping point with them at the moment is their price difference. By further reducing the price of an ICE vehicle over the EV option you're potentially making people pick that ICE vehicle over the EV when they might have gone with the EV.



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Uber Geek


  #2276268 14-Jul-2019 12:05
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Obraik:
tdgeek:

 

Obraik:
You're being unrealistic with that number, and I'm sure you know that.

While replacing all our vehicles with EVs in a few short years would be great, no one has even suggested that as an option. What I and others in here have said is that a subsidy is needed to increase the amount of EVs that make up NZs new car sales numbers.

 

 

 

Off course I am, but you can see why. If we were importing 500,000 EV's every year, this thread would not exist. What I bolded is fine. What is wrong with incentivising Suzuki Swifts? They also reduce emissions, over the 10 year old or more, car they replace. This recent Govt announcement is an emissions announcement The Swift is part of that, as are Hybrids. Unlike all EV's, Swifts and Hybrids are more affordable, so its likely they will get a decent take-up. If so, that wont affect EV's, its in addition. I'm sure there wont be to  many Tesla buyers cancelling in favour os the $1000 subsidy on a Swift. So the Governments emissions objective, gets a few wins.

 

 

 

Except my 656cc motorbike misses out for some reason. 

 


I think incentivising an ICE vehicle sends the wrong message and also ultimately doesn't make a difference. Someone comparing an ICE vehicle out of the subsidy band vs one that is will be unlikely to be swayed to the subsidised ICE because it's in a completely different category to the vehicle they're considering. Anything in the ICE subsidy band is going to be low performing and likely small. Basically, what I'm saying is I don't see the subsidy on ICE vehicles attracting new buyers of that vehicle class - you're just making it cheaper for someone that was already going to buy it.

EVs on the other hand are attractive as an option to nearly all ICE buyers because they work differently and out perform the ICE vehicles in their class. Driving them has negligible impact on the environment and they're quite a lot cheaper to run. The only stopping point with them at the moment is their price difference. By further reducing the price of an ICE vehicle over the EV option you're potentially making people pick that ICE vehicle over the EV when they might have gone with the EV.

 

Yes, the whole idea is to reduce the number of ICE vehicles on our roads, not to encourage people to keep on buying them! In fact, some people are saying that, rather than subsidise the cost of petrol vehicles, it would be better to spend that money on the Govt buying up old gas guzzling vehicles and scrapping them.

 

No other country in the world subsidises the cost of lower emitting petrol vehicles and I'm amazed that "TDGeek", after months of repeatedly arguing why the Government shouldn't subsidise electric vehicles, is now in favour of the Government subsidising some purely petrol vehicles! 

 

And I agree that someone who owns a larger ICE, such as a Range Rover, is not going to rush off and buy a Swift simply because his Range Rover has got more expensive while the Swift has been discounted by a small amount. 


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  #2276269 14-Jul-2019 12:08
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Obraik:
I think incentivising an ICE vehicle sends the wrong message and also ultimately doesn't make a difference. Someone comparing an ICE vehicle out of the subsidy band vs one that is will be unlikely to be swayed to the subsidised ICE because it's in a completely different category to the vehicle they're considering. Anything in the ICE subsidy band is going to be low performing and likely small. Basically, what I'm saying is I don't see the subsidy on ICE vehicles attracting new buyers of that vehicle class - you're just making it cheaper for someone that was already going to buy it.

EVs on the other hand are attractive as an option to nearly all ICE buyers because they work differently and out perform the ICE vehicles in their class. Driving them has negligible impact on the environment and they're quite a lot cheaper to run. The only stopping point with them at the moment is their price difference. By further reducing the price of an ICE vehicle over the EV option you're potentially making people pick that ICE vehicle over the EV when they might have gone with the EV.

 

Wrong message? It sends the message to reduce emissions.

 

Who said its about bringing out of the subsidy band ICE into the subsidy band? No one. 

 

The subsidy will be small but so is the price. Its far more likely to bring in a new buyer that would be a buyer of a pre owned vehicle. Your 8k subsidy went bring in any new buyers

 

Yes YIU ARE MAKING IT CHEAPER FOR SOMEONE WHO WAS ALREADY GLING TO BUY IT. Im glad you have now seen the light. 

 

What I bolded, what a crock! The difference between a subsidised ICE and a subsidies EV is night and day price wise. Night and day. 

 

 

 

Conclusion is that I favour attempt to reduce emissions, you do not. You favour a subsidy on cars that the buyers will buy anyway.Im disappointed that a move that will reduce  emissions and has no bearing on EV purchases as the price difference is night and day is not supported. That says it all and whoever said recently, EV evangelists was correct. The rest of us, most of which are also keen on EV's are climate evangelists.


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  #2276279 14-Jul-2019 12:27
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frednz:

 

Yes, the whole idea is to reduce the number of ICE vehicles on our roads, not to encourage people to keep on buying them! In fact, some people are saying that, rather than subsidise the cost of petrol vehicles, it would be better to spend that money on the Govt buying up old gas guzzling vehicles and scrapping them.

 

No other country in the world subsidises the cost of lower emitting petrol vehicles and I'm amazed that "TDGeek", after months of repeatedly arguing why the Government shouldn't subsidise electric vehicles, is now in favour of the Government subsidising some purely petrol vehicles! 

 

And I agree that someone who owns a larger ICE, such as a Range Rover, is not going to rush off and buy a Swift simply because his Range Rover has got more expensive while the Swift has been discounted by a small amount. 

 

 

No, the idea is to reduce emissions. Read the Government release

 

You are years out of date, there are nit the EV's to get anymore than drops in a bucket. Restart this thread in 10 years time. Every month we import a volume of cars that is a bit more than all EV's that have ever been imported through the last few years. So how can EV realistically reduce the number of ICE cars on the road? Its the bizzarest of bizarre statements.

 

And you are well ware I still feel the subsidy is a waste of space, time and money. Ive already spelled out the numbers involved. Drop in a bucket, get back here when there is a tangible volume involved. As to this move, well as I have stated many times  I support lower emissions. At least that exists here if we replace old ICE with new ICE, and as the ICE prices are low and the subsidy is not high, there will be a takeup. There wont be an additional  takeup from buying 75k EV's

 

You are making things ups who said a Range Rover driver will trade it in on a new Swift. You really are scraping the barrel. But you had no issue telling me multiple times that although want a Kona I can get a Leaf for less. If I wanted a Leaf I would  buy a Leaf. maybe I want a Tesla and its too much too you will tell me to buy  Leaf 

 

A small discount on a 22k car is not  small discount for this in that market. We all know that 8k on an 80k car is chicken feed.


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  #2276283 14-Jul-2019 12:38
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tdgeek:
EV evangelists was correct. The rest of us, most of which are also keen on EV's are climate evangelists.



You possibly need to be careful using the term evangelist, with its religious connotations. In most cases evangelists are spreading the word of god to non believers and will brook no dissent.

In fact disregard, evangelist covers it perfectly.😁




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  #2276286 14-Jul-2019 12:49
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Dingbatt:
tdgeek:
EV evangelists was correct. The rest of us, most of which are also keen on EV's are climate evangelists.


You possibly need to be careful using the term evangelist, with its religious connotations. In most cases evangelists are spreading the word of god to non believers and will brook no dissent.

In fact disregard, evangelist covers it perfectly.😁

 

LOL yes. Its a bit of a pity that a robust discussion end up like this, but so be it.

 

I read your post on the other thread, the non Zealot one, re Hybrids. yeah, Im tempted with them now. I always thought who would use one of those when the ICE has to carry the weight of the electric engine and batteries, then that has to carry the ICE?? But Ive seen a few here that swear by them. Our use case supports EV and PHEV. We are buying new soon, if that was a PHEV it will run mainly on EV, probably 95% with our use case. We have one car, never need two, so I sold my sports car years ago, I use a motorbike for commuting, although I dont commute anymore. Buying a new Hybrid and for me for my now frequent golf outings I was looking at a pre owned Leaf. I could be near all electric for cheap as chips. A new hybrid, and a $15k Leaf. Not bad at all


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