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  Reply # 2096099 25-Sep-2018 12:05
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langi27:

 

For a couple reasons, the Chinese are leading the way in EV sales and volumes, there are some big numbers starting to come out of China (by company's you have never heard of) and it wont take long before quality of their builds is on par with the rest of the world. They will force the others down. 

 

 

I hope Chinese car steel is better than Chinese construction steel.





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  Reply # 2096107 25-Sep-2018 12:18
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frankv:

 

It's kind of interesting, though, that total cost of ownership for a new EV is not much more than for a new ICE, and perhaps less given the direction of fuel prices, and the probably cheaper maintenance. The problem isn't so much the price, as the range, the charging time, etc.

 

 

For me it's both. I drive a fairly new BMW high performance wagon. For me to get the same performance and handling from an EV I'd need to spend at a MINIMUM of 100+K more, plus the range would be signicantly less. There aren't many (any) EV's that compare to my car directly.

 

I believe we are talking 5 years before they have an equivilent car to mine in EV even taking into account a "reasonable" premium.

 

 

 

 

 

 




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  Reply # 2096112 25-Sep-2018 12:29
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ockel:

 

At this time EV's are targeted towards those that have either a personal ideology or those that want to present an image.  In classic marketing manufacturers are charging a super premium to extract maximum profits from that 5% of the population that are willing to pay for that marginal utility. 

 

 

Perhaps so, but at least it's allowed EVs to get started in NZ. Some EV owners are primarily focused on benefits to the environment and don't mind driving a short-range over-priced cast-off EV from overseas. But, you have to admire these people, they have the best intentions in the world and if everyone thought like these "Greenies", then EVs would have taken off a lot faster!

 

And yes, I suppose there are a few who just buy the "latest" so that they can show it off to others. This happened in the early days of LCD TVs etc etc. But if demand takes off globally for products based on new technology, then prices will come down, but it can take quite a long time for this to happen.

 

Then there are people who are mainly focused on monetary issues and will buy EVs only if they are at least as cheap to own, and have features as least as good, as equivalent petrol vehicles. I suspect this may be the largest group of people, and without Government subsidies and incentives, they aren't going to trade-in their petrol vehicles for inferior performing electric vehicles! The range of many petrol vehicles is around 700km, so why buy EVs which only have a range of 200km - 400km?




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  Reply # 2096115 25-Sep-2018 12:40
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tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

Id rather focus on a Toyota type EV than an Audi type. Subsidies can be there, then reduce once you get past the "normal new car"

 

I feel that its a great idea to focus on used EV imports. Lower price, more tyres on the road. But they dont exist (in large numbers)

 

 

People who have bought second-hand EVs have faced a raft of problems that wouldn't have occurred with NZ-New EVs which have manufacturers' warranties. Second-hand EV imports aren't the long-term answer, we really need to focus on getting the price of new EVs down to a reasonable level!

 

 

You mean the Leaf. If we had new Leafs we would have had those issues for our NZ Leaf. How many people can afford a new car? How many can afford a used car? They are a gulf apart. Then it becomes a subsidy for a few which goes against the desire to ramp them up. So, it becomes non important to most, a niche market, who cares. Look for a very modern ICE to last me for the next 10 years and so on. You need to look at all avenues. If nothing was done, it would take a LONG time to establish any meaningful numbers here.

 

 

With regard to the Nissan Leaf, owners of second-hand imported Leafs have faced many issues that wouldn't have been present if they had been able to buy NZ-New Leafs. For example, the navigation system may not have NZ maps and may be written in Japanese. The stereo systems etc may have to be adapted to NZ conditions.

 

And worst of all, it took Nissan NZ a long time to come to the party with updated firmware for 30 kWh Leafs to "solve" the fast battery degradation problem! In the meantime, some 30 kWh owners paid $250 to get their Leafs updated by third party software that still hasn't been approved by Nissan! So these owners are now faced with paying an official Nissan dealer to overwrite the third party firmware with Nissan approved firmware. None of this would have happened if Nissan NZ had marketed the 30 kWh Leaf as new in NZ, but they didn't do this.


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  Reply # 2096116 25-Sep-2018 12:44
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frednz:

 

 

 

With regard to the Nissan Leaf, owners of second-hand imported Leafs have faced many issues that wouldn't have been present if they had been able to buy NZ-New Leafs. For example, the navigation system may not have NZ maps and may be written in Japanese. The stereo systems etc may have to be adapted to NZ conditions.

 

And worst of all, it took Nissan NZ a long time to come to the party with updated firmware for 30 kWh Leafs to "solve" the fast battery degradation problem! In the meantime, some 30 kWh owners paid $250 to get their Leafs updated by third party software that still hasn't been approved by Nissan! None of this would have happened if Nissan NZ had marketed the 30 kWh Leaf as new in NZ, but they didn't do this.

 

 

I don't feel that is relevant, could happen to an ICE car, washing machine, things happen.


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  Reply # 2096117 25-Sep-2018 12:44
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frednz:

 

With regard to the Nissan Leaf, owners of second-hand imported Leafs have faced many issues that wouldn't have been present if they had been able to buy NZ-New Leafs. For example, the navigation system may not have NZ maps and may be written in Japanese. The stereo systems etc may have to be adapted to NZ conditions.

 

And worst of all, it took Nissan NZ a long time to come to the party with updated firmware for 30 kWh Leafs to "solve" the fast battery degradation problem! In the meantime, some 30 kWh owners paid $250 to get their Leafs updated by third party software that still hasn't been approved by Nissan! None of this would have happened if Nissan NZ had marketed the 30 kWh Leaf as new in NZ, but they didn't do this.

 

 

They didn't do this because they couldn't compete on price with the dealers importing them. 

 

It seems like trying to have your cake and eating it too; you can't expect local agents to support something for consumers who want to undercut them on price. 

 


Luckily that's less of an issue given Nissan will apparently sell MY19 Leafs, Renault here is selling the Zoe, etc. 


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  Reply # 2096121 25-Sep-2018 12:47
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frednz:

 

 

 

Then there are people who are mainly focused on monetary issues and will buy EVs only if they are at least as cheap to own, and have features as least as good, as equivalent petrol vehicles. I suspect this may be the largest group of people, and without Government subsidies and incentives, they aren't going to trade-in their petrol vehicles for inferior performing electric vehicles! The range of many petrol vehicles is around 700km, so why buy EVs which only have a range of 200km - 400km?

 

 

EV's don't suit everyone. But if I can buy a car that has the features I want or pay another $30 to 40k, I will buy a new ICE as will many, so that takes many financially capable owners out of the market for 10 years. Those that want $100k, they will buy them anyway generally.

 

There might even be a new ICE surge in demand as the masses give up on EV. Leaving EV numbers to creep up very slowly, not news anymore


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  Reply # 2096123 25-Sep-2018 12:55
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tdgeek:

 

ockel:

 

 

 

Subsidies will only transfer profit from the government to the manufacturer.  Its artificial and a false demand tool.

 

 

Its exactly that and unashameably it is. Its a temporary tool to fast track tyres onto roads. Then its dropped as market forces and supply can work

 

 

And its blatantly the wrong thing to do.  There isnt a demand problem.  There is a price problem.  But only a price problem for the LHS 95% of the demand curve.  Introducing a subsidy only shifts that price to the left and results in even more unmet demand.

 

If the Govt was serious about leadership on this issue then it would direct all Govt departments to fleet buy only EV's (not a proportion like 30% but a full 100%).  Thats crown limo's through to Govt departments.  The cost is carried in the Budget and results in actively sending the signal to the wider community, deepening the 2nd hand EV market as fleet renewals start to occur in 3 years, and doesnt artificially skew demand.  Its a genuine tool to fast track tyres onto roads and still achieves the desired outcome and has properly functioning market forces.

 

If this is really our "nuclear free" for the next generation (what a load of BS but the debate on the event and the outcome of that "historic moment" is another can of worms for discussion elsewhere) then replacing the fleet with EV's is a benefit for future generations and worth the expenditure now.


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  Reply # 2096131 25-Sep-2018 13:07
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I would prefer that any subsidy be applied to the recharging aspect and not the purchase of vehicles with the exception of continuing the RUC exemption. The complaint that is often heard and it is one of my hurdles is range. The Range fear can be lessened by more charging stations especially in the places we take our vehicles such as Malls and parking buildings and work places and  the ability to install faster charging in homes. To that  end I would like to see subsidy applied there and maybe futher on the installation of Solar capacity in homes to charge vehicles.





Mike
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The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 2096136 25-Sep-2018 13:25
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sbiddle:

 

I'm already subsidising EV vehicle owners. I'll be unhappy subsidising them further.

 

You can't keep giving EV owners greater subsidies and trying to recoup the cost of roads from petrol and diesel vehicle owners.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think EVs will be of little concern compared to hybrid vehicles. IE Volvo XC90 @ 2.1 l/100 kms (I am sure there will be cheaper cars too).

 

 

 

This means that these cars will be paying around 1/4 of the taxes of a normal ICE vehicle.

 

 

 

Someone else needs to happen - change the tax strategy perhaps?


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  Reply # 2096148 25-Sep-2018 13:47
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jjnz1:

 

I think EVs will be of little concern compared to hybrid vehicles. IE Volvo XC90 @ 2.1 l/100 kms (I am sure there will be cheaper cars too).

 

 

 

This means that these cars will be paying around 1/4 of the taxes of a normal ICE vehicle.

 

 

 

Someone else needs to happen - change the tax strategy perhaps?

 

 

The answer is simple - RUC as is applied to diesel vehicles. IIRC they can be applied to EVs alredy but an exemption has been granted.  Bad luck for whoever is in government when it's time to pull the plug on the exemption - there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

That's an issue with subsidies - they become seen as a part of business as usual and people are outraged when you try to remove them.





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  Reply # 2096156 25-Sep-2018 13:54
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MikeAqua:

 

jjnz1:

 

I think EVs will be of little concern compared to hybrid vehicles. IE Volvo XC90 @ 2.1 l/100 kms (I am sure there will be cheaper cars too).

 

 

 

This means that these cars will be paying around 1/4 of the taxes of a normal ICE vehicle.

 

 

 

Someone else needs to happen - change the tax strategy perhaps?

 

 

The answer is simple - RUC as is applied to diesel vehicles. IIRC they can be applied to EVs alredy but an exemption has been granted.  Bad luck for whoever is in government when it's time to pull the plug on the exemption - there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

That's an issue with subsidies - they become seen as a part of business as usual and people are outraged when you try to remove them.

 

 

A return to RUCs on EVs could be gradual, Say a 15% increase per year across the fleet until full RUCs are being charged or alternatively per vehicle it could be exempt for two years then each year the rate of RUC applied at 25% per year until fully applied. That way the pain is lessened.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 2096159 25-Sep-2018 13:57
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If its told as 31 Dec 2021 as is probably currently the case there is no need to lessen pain. Its known to conclude on x date


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  Reply # 2096171 25-Sep-2018 14:18
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MikeB4:

 

A return to RUCs on EVs could be gradual, Say a 15% increase per year across the fleet until full RUCs are being charged or alternatively per vehicle it could be exempt for two years then each year the rate of RUC applied at 25% per year until fully applied. That way the pain is lessened.

 

 

RUC blows to economics of EVs totally out of the water......

 

RUC At $68/1000km it adds $6.80 per 100km... ( its basically equivalent to $1/litre on a small car) see below

 

 

 

using EECA's figures,

 

https://www.energywise.govt.nz/on-the-road/electric-vehicles/advantages-and-challenges-of-evs/ev-running-costs/

 

if you had a ICE Toyota Corolla, at  @ 6.4l/100km @ $2.40;litre, it costs you $15.4/100km,

 

an EV at 11.5kwh/100km @15c/kwh ( that's the off peak residential rate EECA quote to give a 30c/litre equivalent.) you have $1.70 per 100km.

 

add RUC you get $8.50/100km..

 

so your EV "price per litre" goes from ~30c/litre to ~$1.30 c/litre...

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2096211 25-Sep-2018 15:03
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If you want to compare the running costs of a petrol/diesel car vs an electric car, you can on the EECA TCO tool.

 

 

 

disclaimer: we (3bit) power it behind the scenes, so yes, this is blatant self promotion.


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