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  Reply # 2096403 25-Sep-2018 20:33
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ockel:

 

frednz:

 

tdgeek:

 

frednz:

 

I think there would be a considerable amount of public criticism if the cost of new EVs for Govt departments meant that expenditure on essential items had to be curtailed to some extent.

 

 

 

 

Wrong. Govt or a business are better placed to buy a new EV. They do that for one reason. Saving. So when a Govt or business outfits itself with EV its a saving not an extra cost.

 

 

I don't think it's as black and white as that! I think there's a fair bit of pressure on Govt Departments and politicians to buy EVs to show they're supporting the Government's climate change objectives. Cost accountants within the Government might be hard pressed to prove that buying new EVs at high prices produces cost savings to taxpayers! 

 

 

And yet in the stroke of an announcement the Govt can reduce its future earnings by $8-9bn and axe jobs to show it supports climate change objectives.  The cost accountants didnt even get to do their analysis.  MBIE and Treasury are now counting the cost of the policy on oil & gas - and the Minister is still choosing to ignore it on the basis of political ideology!  Surely EV's benefits are more quantifiable.

 

 

O+G is not the same. O+G companies have a HUGE amount of untapped exploration despite the cut to new exploration. They give up on new areas as there is so much unexplored. The Govt is going to cut them some slack but what has this got to do with EV? If the Govt went full EV who cares? The masses want an option. At 60k its no option. Charging stations are already well established. Its ok if we let it evolve naturally. Get back to this thread in 15 years


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  Reply # 2096405 25-Sep-2018 20:47
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The point was made that the Govt need to prove to taxpayers that buying EV's produces cost savings or can be justified in terms of climate control.  Climate control policy has already been made with respect to O&G without any regard to cost, consequence or even Departmental advice.  Made on the basis of political ideology.  Why do EV's need to be justified when other things have not?  Its a simple arithmetic to follow.  

 

 

 

[Mod edit (MF): no need to quote the whole previous post]


 
 
 
 


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  Reply # 2096499 26-Sep-2018 07:25
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Well why do so many countries provide incentives? A quick peek sees up to 16500 Euro. Some have exemptions from taxes, but generally you are looking at 10k. Are they all wrong?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2096507 26-Sep-2018 07:41
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tdgeek:

 

Well why do so many countries provide incentives? A quick peek sees up to 16500 Euro. Some have exemptions from taxes, but generally you are looking at 10k. Are they all wrong?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles

 

 

Lots of countries provide incentives for solar too, it doesn't change the monumental payback periods. Partly I'm guessing it's a need to drive new vehicle sales (America would grind to a halt if people kept their cars for five years instead of three) and partly a result of a more powerful green lobby that has driven some strange decision-making in Europe. 


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  Reply # 2096512 26-Sep-2018 07:53
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The payback is not necessarily financial. The payback is a sustainable viable home.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 2096513 26-Sep-2018 07:53
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GV27:

 

tdgeek:

 

Well why do so many countries provide incentives? A quick peek sees up to 16500 Euro. Some have exemptions from taxes, but generally you are looking at 10k. Are they all wrong?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles

 

 

Lots of countries provide incentives for solar too, it doesn't change the monumental payback periods. Partly I'm guessing it's a need to drive new vehicle sales (America would grind to a halt if people kept their cars for five years instead of three) and partly a result of a more powerful green lobby that has driven some strange decision-making in Europe. 

 

 

Surely a subsidy would reduce the payback period? At a personal level. Ironically the EPA review will probably scuttle solar here. EV wise, I feel while there are green lobbyists, Governments probably see a local feel good benefit from their people if they are seen to be green progressive. Alternatively, to not be seen as green negative.


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  Reply # 2096528 26-Sep-2018 08:29
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tdgeek:

 

Well why do so many countries provide incentives? A quick peek sees up to 16500 Euro. Some have exemptions from taxes, but generally you are looking at 10k. Are they all wrong?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_incentives_for_plug-in_electric_vehicles

 

 

 

 

The existence of incentives does not prove that they are "right".

 

The primary driver of such policies is not economics so it is more likely that economic assessments will show negative outcomes.

 

The recent history of incentives to promot similar "green" policies has shown that the cost of incentives can easily outpace their benefits. Germany was high on solar incentives but these will soon be totally withdrawn because the economic cost was too high to continue even for such a wealthy economy. There's no shortage of articles on that issue:

 

https://phys.org/news/2013-07-germany-solar-subsidies.html

 

Berlin "has so far invested 216 billion euros ($278 billion) in renewables and the biggest chunk went to solar, the technology which does the least to ensure the power supply" said the head of industrial group Siemens, Peter Loescher

 

 

http://fortune.com/2017/03/14/germany-renewable-clean-energy-solar/

 

Thanks to Germany’s lavish first-mover spending, a raft of second-mover countries, from the U.S. to China to India, are now installing solar and wind power on a huge scale. If renewable energy ends up significantly helping curb climate change, then history may judge the Energiewende as a remarkable example of global leadership.

 

...

 

But all that ambition is bleeding Germany. The mounting costs are testing its resolve. Leading politicians, even those with strong environmental credibility, are racing to rein in spending. If they can’t achieve that, then Germany’s near miracle may be remembered as the environmental equivalent of, say, heart-transplant surgery: a worthy endeavor, undoubtedly, but one that remains unattainable for all but the very wealthiest.

 

 

 

 

P.S. Edited to removes pasted text that didn't show when creating the post


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  Reply # 2096530 26-Sep-2018 08:34
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Agreed. We have benefited from the other nation's subsidies of EVs. NZ throwing taxpayer funds are more will not change the amount of global supply one iota; if history is anything to go by, given the limited local supply currently on offer, it could push prices up.  


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  Reply # 2096534 26-Sep-2018 08:46
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Fair enough. With production as it is, the whole topic is really off the table until production is at a level where if you want one, go out and buy one. Hard to know if production is low due to lack of demand or lack of production capability. I.e. can they ramp it up or not?

 

Solar benefits to the grid are very low, maybe its the same overseas, although Australia does benefit. EV, well, a lot of that is a green good idea, and saving money on fuel, bit todays prices mean you will be paying for future fuel for years. I take the global EV subsidies as mainly a green good idea. Which is why I favour some level of subsidy or benefit, in order to do something to reduce emissions, hence there isnt the same need to balance financial costs against financial benefits, its an atmosphere benefit. There are many things being done to help climate change that are pure costs only.


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  Reply # 2096553 26-Sep-2018 09:24
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Incentives don't need to be direct, increasing the the fuel tax will naturally drive people to EV's, everyone will have a different threshold (similar to smoking cigarettes)  and when the time comes to start taxing EV's through RUC's they wont have to take the subsidy away. Might not be the most popular move but easier to apply in the long term. 


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  Reply # 2096606 26-Sep-2018 10:02
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I've been following this thread, and now is time to add by 2cents...

 

     

  1. If a incentive is given to EV buyers, and the sales of EV's do increase in big numbers, what replaces the income to the Government coming from RUC and taxes on petrol? Would this EV incentive then just increase the RUC the haulage industry has to pay, therefore resulting in increased shipping costs being passed onto consumers?
  2. Is it time in NZ for a complete overhaul\rewrite of the vehicle taxing\registration process? Maybe adopt a similar model to the UK where as I understand it the more co2 emissions your car produces, the more you pay. The big downside to this of course is that this sort of tax would more than likely impact those not so well off the most
  3. EV adoption will become more widespread once you can by a used EV, at a used Toyota Corolla\Ford Focus\Mazda 3 price, and the range is on par with the outgoing\conventional ICE vehicles. Of course to be able to have a used vehicle market, you need to have them purchased by someone first.

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2096610 26-Sep-2018 10:07
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

EV adoption will become more widespread once you can by a used EV, at a used Toyota Corolla\Ford Focus\Mazda 3 price, and the range is on par with the outgoing\conventional ICE vehicles. Of course to be able to have a used vehicle market, you need to have them purchased by someone first.

 

 

You need someone to make them at a price they can be sold at Corolla/Focus/Swift prices. Take a look at who isn't making EV hatchbacks any time soon:

 

1. Suzuki

 

2. Toyota

 

3. Ford

 

4. etc

 

I'm sure you can see where this is going. Toyota are still barking up the wrong tree with hydrogen. Ford are making a crossover EV before they make anything else. Suzuki has a hybrid but no BEV plans publicly announced.


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  Reply # 2096611 26-Sep-2018 10:08
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The range thing is a odd one. I have two friends with PHEVs and they went with the PHEV due to range anxiety and were adament that they needed to have the petrol engine. However both say they seldom put petrol in their vehicles. With some simple planing they could easily go full EV and one of them is going to do that at the next replacement time.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 2096613 26-Sep-2018 10:10
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GV27:

 

WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

EV adoption will become more widespread once you can by a used EV, at a used Toyota Corolla\Ford Focus\Mazda 3 price, and the range is on par with the outgoing\conventional ICE vehicles. Of course to be able to have a used vehicle market, you need to have them purchased by someone first.

 

 

You need someone to make them at a price they can be sold at Corolla/Focus/Swift prices. Take a look at who isn't making EV hatchbacks any time soon:

 

1. Suzuki

 

2. Toyota

 

3. Ford

 

4. etc

 

I'm sure you can see where this is going. Toyota are still barking up the wrong tree with hydrogen. Ford are making a crossover EV before they make anything else. Suzuki has a hybrid but no BEV plans publicly announced.

 

 

Suzuki is entering the EV market with the first vehicles due 2020. Ford already have EVs EG the Focus EV.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 2096615 26-Sep-2018 10:13
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MikeB4:

 

The range thing is a odd one. I have two friends with PHEVs and they went with the PHEV due to range anxiety and were adament that they needed to have the petrol engine. However both say they seldom put petrol in their vehicles. With some simple planing they could easily go full EV and one of them is going to do that at the next replacement time.

 

 

The other EV thread  has many post on managing range on trips. The charger network seems pretty good and growing. Initially if you commute, drive local its no issue. Quick charge is there too.

 

A bit like battery lawnmowers and other tools, they aren't real, get a proper tool. But these days they are


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