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  Reply # 2096619 26-Sep-2018 10:16
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

I've been following this thread, and now is time to add by 2cents...

 

     

  1. If a incentive is given to EV buyers, and the sales of EV's do increase in big numbers, what replaces the income to the Government coming from RUC and taxes on petrol? Would this EV incentive then just increase the RUC the haulage industry has to pay, therefore resulting in increased shipping costs being passed onto consumers?
  2. Is it time in NZ for a complete overhaul\rewrite of the vehicle taxing\registration process? Maybe adopt a similar model to the UK where as I understand it the more co2 emissions your car produces, the more you pay. The big downside to this of course is that this sort of tax would more than likely impact those not so well off the most
  3. EV adoption will become more widespread once you can by a used EV, at a used Toyota Corolla\Ford Focus\Mazda 3 price, and the range is on par with the outgoing\conventional ICE vehicles. Of course to be able to have a used vehicle market, you need to have them purchased by someone first.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right now the RUC effect is minimal. 10,000 on the road. 1/4 of one percent. Things will change, but it needs availability first. Kona is 400km range thats not bad. price, thats bad!


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  Reply # 2096620 26-Sep-2018 10:17
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MikeB4:

 

GV27:

 

WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

EV adoption will become more widespread once you can by a used EV, at a used Toyota Corolla\Ford Focus\Mazda 3 price, and the range is on par with the outgoing\conventional ICE vehicles. Of course to be able to have a used vehicle market, you need to have them purchased by someone first.

 

 

You need someone to make them at a price they can be sold at Corolla/Focus/Swift prices. Take a look at who isn't making EV hatchbacks any time soon:

 

1. Suzuki

 

2. Toyota

 

3. Ford

 

4. etc

 

I'm sure you can see where this is going. Toyota are still barking up the wrong tree with hydrogen. Ford are making a crossover EV before they make anything else. Suzuki has a hybrid but no BEV plans publicly announced.

 

 

Suzuki is entering the EV market with the first vehicles due 2020. Ford already have EVs EG the Focus EV.

 

 

I missed the Suzuki announcement; in my defence that was really recent (two weeks ago). No specs that I could find though. 

 

Ford sell a whopping 1,800 Focus Es in the US a year and you can't buy one here. It's a car that might as well not exist outside of California. 


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  Reply # 2096623 26-Sep-2018 10:25
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Peugeot are launching the 208 EV 2019. The car makers are getting onboard and momentum will gather in order for the brands to maintain market share. Planning now by the Government is vital so we are ready for the increase in demand. This is why I  believe that the incentives should not be on the car but on the charging process.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2096624 26-Sep-2018 10:27
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GV27:

 

WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

EV adoption will become more widespread once you can by a used EV, at a used Toyota Corolla\Ford Focus\Mazda 3 price, and the range is on par with the outgoing\conventional ICE vehicles. Of course to be able to have a used vehicle market, you need to have them purchased by someone first.

 

 

You need someone to make them at a price they can be sold at Corolla/Focus/Swift prices. Take a look at who isn't making EV hatchbacks any time soon:

 

1. Suzuki

 

2. Toyota

 

3. Ford

 

4. etc

 

I'm sure you can see where this is going. Toyota are still barking up the wrong tree with hydrogen. Ford are making a crossover EV before they make anything else. Suzuki has a hybrid but no BEV plans publicly announced.

 

 

Ford are making a EV crossover, because that's what the public want. NZer's do. Just take a look at the top 15 new cars\suv's sold YTD August

 

1 TOYOTA COROLLA
2 TOYOTA RAV4
3 MAZDA CX-5
4 KIA SPORTAGE
5 SUZUKI SWIFT
6 TOYOTA HIGHLANDER
7 MITSUBISHI OUTLANDER
8 MITSUBISHI ASX
9 NISSAN QASHQAI
10 HOLDEN CAPTIVA
11 HONDA JAZZ
12 MAZDA MAZDA3
13 HYUNDAI TUCSON
14 HYUNDAI KONA
15 VOLKSWAGEN TIGUAN

 

From here: https://www.mia.org.nz/Sales-Data/Vehicle-Sales

 

If you look in our nearest neighbor, the Aussies, it'll be a similar story there.


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  Reply # 2096626 26-Sep-2018 10:28
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MikeB4:

 

Peugeot are launching the 208 EV 2019. The car makers are getting onboard and momentum will gather in order for the brands to maintain market share. Planning now by the Government is vital so we are ready for the increase in demand. This is why I  believe that the incentives should not be on the car but on the charging process.

 

 

As in free charging? Or infrastructure. I believe infrastructure growth is already going well.


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  Reply # 2096629 26-Sep-2018 10:32
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MikeB4:

 

Peugeot are launching the 208 EV 2019. The car makers are getting onboard and momentum will gather in order for the brands to maintain market share. Planning now by the Government is vital so we are ready for the increase in demand. This is why I  believe that the incentives should not be on the car but on the charging process.

 

 

How would you put incentives on the charging process?

 

Aren't all the electricity retailers privatized?


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  Reply # 2096662 26-Sep-2018 10:39
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tdgeek:

 

MikeB4:

 

Peugeot are launching the 208 EV 2019. The car makers are getting onboard and momentum will gather in order for the brands to maintain market share. Planning now by the Government is vital so we are ready for the increase in demand. This is why I  believe that the incentives should not be on the car but on the charging process.

 

 

As in free charging? Or infrastructure. I believe infrastructure growth is already going well.

 

 

Incentives to private buyers to fund fast charging at home and alternative supply eg Solar. Incentives for the likes of Malls, businesses etc to provide charge points in the parking facilities. If uptake of EVs were to rapidly grow, a very possible scenario given the current price of petrol and unrest in the Middle East the current extent of public charge points would never meet demand.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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  Reply # 2096666 26-Sep-2018 10:50
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MikeB4:

 

Incentives to private buyers to fund fast charging at home and alternative supply eg Solar. Incentives for the likes of Malls, businesses etc to provide charge points in the parking facilities.

 

If uptake of EVs were to rapidly grow, a very possible scenario given the current price of petrol and unrest in the Middle East the current extent ofpublic charge points would never meet demand.

 

 

Charging isn't the big issues, Its the up font costs that are the biggest  dis-incentive...

 

 A regular 10amp socket @240v can happily put in at least 15kwh over 8 hours, which is 80-100kms of range, I would argue that covers 80% of daily usage.... most users simply don't need fast chargers at home....

 

 


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  Reply # 2096671 26-Sep-2018 10:58
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Drive around your town and count the charge stations. Now picture  a big increase in EVs, will the handful you have counted cope? I can recall the demand for CNG and LPG vehicles during the 70s oils shocks and the waiting list for conversions and waiting times at the few CNG/LPG refuelling points. I was selling the conversion equipement and Refuelling station equipement at the time and it was a nightmare.

 

By subsidising the charging process the RUC revenue can remain and those who for various reason cannot change are not unfairly carrying the road funding burden. The price of vehicles will naturally come down as competition and demand grows.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

 Mac user, Windows curser, Chrome OS desired.

 

The great divide is the lies from both sides.

 

 


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Ultimate Geek
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  Reply # 2096694 26-Sep-2018 11:39
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wellygary:

 

MikeB4:

 

Incentives to private buyers to fund fast charging at home and alternative supply eg Solar. Incentives for the likes of Malls, businesses etc to provide charge points in the parking facilities.

 

If uptake of EVs were to rapidly grow, a very possible scenario given the current price of petrol and unrest in the Middle East the current extent ofpublic charge points would never meet demand.

 

 

Charging isn't the big issues, Its the up font costs that are the biggest  dis-incentive...

 

 A regular 10amp socket @240v can happily put in at least 15kwh over 8 hours, which is 80-100kms of range, I would argue that covers 80% of daily usage.... most users simply don't need fast chargers at home....

 

 

 

 

But surely the benefit of a EV is having a car\vehicle that is fully charged and ready to go.

 

While 80-100km's of range is probably enough for most's daily usage, the EV still needs to be capable of driving to it's full range if it's needed, e.g. dying relative scenario.

 

Would you buy a new phone if it only charged to 25% of it's charge capability?


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  Reply # 2096729 26-Sep-2018 11:47
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MikeB4:

 

Drive around your town and count the charge stations.

 

 

They are nearly often empty, occasionally I see one in use, but most aren't

 

-The most used is a 3 pin plug in a steel pillar box that the council put in a local Z about 5 years ago,

 

it gets used because EV owners don't have to pay for parking to leave their car there 


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  Reply # 2096730 26-Sep-2018 11:51
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

wellygary:

 

 A regular 10amp socket @240v can happily put in at least 15kwh over 8 hours, which is 80-100kms of range, I would argue that covers 80% of daily usage.... most users simply don't need fast chargers at home....

 

 

But surely the benefit of a EV is having a car\vehicle that is fully charged and ready to go.

 

While 80-100km's of range is probably enough for most's daily usage, the EV still needs to be capable of driving to it's full range if it's needed, e.g. dying relative scenario.

 

Would you buy a new phone if it only charged to 25% of it's charge capability?

 

 

You misunderstand,

 

What I am saying is that a regular socket can replenish daily driving quite happily,

 

The car can have a 60Kwh Battery, you use it for the day and come home with 45Kwh left, plug it in  and in the morning its all good to go.

 

 

 

 

 

 


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  Reply # 2096733 26-Sep-2018 11:54
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WyleECoyoteNZ:

 

wellygary:

 

MikeB4:

 

Incentives to private buyers to fund fast charging at home and alternative supply eg Solar. Incentives for the likes of Malls, businesses etc to provide charge points in the parking facilities.

 

If uptake of EVs were to rapidly grow, a very possible scenario given the current price of petrol and unrest in the Middle East the current extent ofpublic charge points would never meet demand.

 

 

Charging isn't the big issues, Its the up font costs that are the biggest  dis-incentive...

 

 A regular 10amp socket @240v can happily put in at least 15kwh over 8 hours, which is 80-100kms of range, I would argue that covers 80% of daily usage.... most users simply don't need fast chargers at home....

 

 

 

 

But surely the benefit of a EV is having a car\vehicle that is fully charged and ready to go.

 

While 80-100km's of range is probably enough for most's daily usage, the EV still needs to be capable of driving to it's full range if it's needed, e.g. dying relative scenario.

 

Would you buy a new phone if it only charged to 25% of it's charge capability?

 

 

If you do less kms per day than a nightly charge gives, then its gradually being topped up. Then you are topping it to full each night. If I got one I'd make an effort to 100% charge it. Then start using it. And find where all the chargers live and so on. Bit of adaptation I'd say


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  Reply # 2096752 26-Sep-2018 12:27
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Regarding total cost of ownership / business cases for electric cars, some people have been clearly saying that EV's already stack up financially.

This is only really true in limited cases. Pretty much, if you buy a sub $20k leaf, and use it to commute each weekday, for most of it's range. (If you charge at home and at work to commute further than the leaf's round trip range, payback can be fast).

Generally with new electric vehicles, the depreciation is extremely steep due to a combination of rapidly improving tech,  battery degradation in the Nissan leaf, and used imports (with foreign subsides) undercutting the price of NZ new cars. (Possible exception is the likes of the tesla's which have a high purchase price, but low percentage depreciation, and compete with euro's that also have super high depreciation.).

Take somebody who brought a New Nissan leaf for $70k in 2011 as an example. That car will now be worth $12k - $18k..

I think it is good to understand, that most pure EV buyers (it is a little different for PHEV), are either buying cheap used car's (mostly leaf's), to keep the TCO lesser or comparable than an equivalent say, corolla hatch, or are eairly adopters who are willing to pay a premium for an electric drivetrain. (mostly because they like the tech, want to reduce emissions, or want to appear green). Not everything about EV's is about saving money.

-----------

NZ not having subsidies, and our competing markets having them has created a weird situation.

In short, it is hard to move many vehicles when private buyers can get way cheaper deals as (near new) used imports.

Take Nissan as an example, in 2011, they were selling leaf's at approx $70k. In 2013/2014, they managed to get Nissan Australia to offload their unsold (from 2011) leaf stock at a bargain price. They sold those cars at $40k as 2013 / 2014 cars, without disclosing they had been sitting for years (this is standard practice in the NZ auto industry). At the same time, near new used imports from japan of the mid cycle refresh model (AZE0), were turning up at used import dealers at a similar/ cheaper price than the old ZE0 model, nissan was selling officially. (the ex aussie cars are the only one with factory fitted spare tires if you want to identify them). When Nissan NZ sold out of the ex aussie cars (took a couple of years), they decided to quit the market. In short, getting another batch of cars from japan was going to require them to sell them for a lot more than $40k, and the market was pritty slow at the $40k price-point. Nissan NZ has said, that they will get back into the market with the 2019 leaf, which is rumored to have a 60kWh batter, active battery cooling, 150kW motor etc.

I think Renault also got a bit burnt with the Zoe, in that stock was so slow to sell, that they still had stock on hand when newer tech came along from both other brands, and grey market imports of their own brand. (pack size jumped from 22kWh to 41kWh). This required heavy discounting to sell remaining stock.

On one hand, all the used imports, has been great for the EV scene, as we have taken advantage of other countries subsidies, and have avoided the stigma of having purchase subsidies. (there is a lot of hate of EV's in other markets, and non-ev owners resent their tax going to new car buyers).

Having lots of used import's, and Nissan NZ's refusal to support grey market leaf's has created the situation where we have lots of thriving third party businesses that have gained the experience to look after these cars a cheaper prices than dealers. Everything from EV specialist car-yards, to English dash conversions, to EVSE suppliers, to battery health research, to battery cell replacement.

Downside of having lots of used imports, is forced the likes of Nissan NZ out of the market. The nz arm's of car brands have big market budgets, that the likes of GVI and EV central cannot compete with. Hyundai NZ has pored big bucks into Ioniq bill boards, and having they sitting in airport's. Tesla NZ (and nissan before they pulled out of the EV market), paid to have their cars sitting in the middle of shoping malls.

Also, you loose your showroom buyers, who are only interested in an NZ official car from the brand name dealership. Plenty of private buyers who will go back to their favorite official car yard every three years, and pick out a new car. Plenty of business fleet managers will only deal with new cars, with full warranties etc.


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  Reply # 2096810 26-Sep-2018 13:39
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Scott3:

 

-----------

NZ not having subsidies, and our competing markets having them has created a weird situation.

In short, it is hard to move many vehicles when private buyers can get way cheaper deals as (near new) used imports.

 

Yeah , but if you look at Australia, their sales are even lower than NZ (even absolutely if you include PHEVS) and they have no used imports dissuading EV manufacturers.....

 

https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news/how-australia-compares-globally-for-electric-vehicle-sales

 

I think the tiny size of the NZ market is also part of the issue.....

 

 

 

 


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