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  # 2153374 2-Jan-2019 17:08
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and what is ACC?




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  # 2153377 2-Jan-2019 17:12
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Dingbatt:
Geektastic:

They should have no ACC cover for any accident in which they are the driver until they have held a clean, full licence for 5 years. Why should the rest of the population carry their significant increase in risk?




ACC is a No Fault compensation scheme. To exclude a group due to risk is a very dangerous precedent to set. Who next? Skiers? Skydivers? Mountain-bikers? Why should the rest of the population carry the risk for them either? Because this is NZ, and ACC for all its shortcomings, is a great thing. Unless you are an ambulance chasing lawyer. Your suggestion is ridiculous.


ACC is past it's sell by date in my view.

It's in need of significant revision to reflect the modern world at the very least.

I agree with you. The rest of the population ought not to cover the risk of people undertaking dangerous sports. There should at least be increased contributions for those people.






 
 
 
 


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  # 2153413 2-Jan-2019 17:42
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What was NZs road toll in 2018? 382

 

Victoria, population 6.3 million (2 million outside the main city, on rural roads, including alpine, hills, coast, highways, and dirt backroads, some worse, some better than NZ, + kangaroos and other appearing wildlife) was 214.

 

Obviously some driver training being needed, in both areas, but more in NZ.

 

On TV here in Oz, we get shows like Highway Patrol, RBT, and your Motorway Patrol... You know who gets let off more times than anyone? People in NZ driving when they shouldn't be.

 

Here they get impounded.

 

In Vic, you'll get a fine for 3kms over the speed limit. 

 

Our minimum fines are over $200 for under 10kph over the limit.

 

NZ's fines are a joke in comparison. No wonder nobody gives a toss.

 

 

 

To sum it all up, Nobody in NZ takes driving seriously.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: In other news, I explained ACC to the better half and her reply was "WTAF???". Could've done with ACC when I broke my toe in the boat. :D




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  # 2153529 2-Jan-2019 22:39
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blakamin:

 

What was NZs road toll in 2018? 382

 

Victoria, population 6.3 million (2 million outside the main city, on rural roads, including alpine, hills, coast, highways, and dirt backroads, some worse, some better than NZ, + kangaroos and other appearing wildlife) was 214.

 

Obviously some driver training being needed, in both areas, but more in NZ.

 

On TV here in Oz, we get shows like Highway Patrol, RBT, and your Motorway Patrol... You know who gets let off more times than anyone? People in NZ driving when they shouldn't be.

 

Here they get impounded.

 

In Vic, you'll get a fine for 3kms over the speed limit. 

 

Our minimum fines are over $200 for under 10kph over the limit.

 

NZ's fines are a joke in comparison. No wonder nobody gives a toss.

 

 

 

To sum it all up, Nobody in NZ takes driving seriously.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: In other news, I explained ACC to the better half and her reply was "WTAF???". Could've done with ACC when I broke my toe in the boat. :D

 

 

^^ This.








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  # 2153530 2-Jan-2019 22:41
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mudguard:

 

Geektastic:

 

Aged 17 having passed your test yesterday, 99.9999% of drivers have inadequate experience to be safe begind the wheel of a car such as - for example - a Subaru Impreza WRX STi.

 

 

 

 

I'm fairly certain no insurance company will touch a driver under 25 years of age in a turbo vehicle. I bought a Subaru Legacy three weeks before my 25th birthday and had to take out a third party only policy with NAC. This was despite calling AMI and asking prior to buying the car if they would insure me, they said yes initially, and then no after I bought it!

 

 

 

 

Yes but in NZ that doesn't matter - you are not required to insure it.






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  # 2153666 3-Jan-2019 10:02
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Geektastic:
afe66: Denying ACC is not an option. Unless you expect the ambulance service you refuse to collect you at the road side.

Who do you think pays the hospital for your medical treatment when you have an accident.

The hospital will save your life and worry about the cost later and then when you cant pay will stop doing elective surgery.

ACC is a major source of funding to hospitals.

A much simpler option would be to punish the driver for their poor driving.

Compulsory insurance just adds another level if bureaucracy.

Break the insurance company rules and the police arrest you or seize your car.

How about just arresting people and seeing cars first.


You do realise that everywhere else, the insurance pays the medical costs?


Do you realise that ACC block funds the treatment of nz hospitals _before_ the injury occurs.

NZ health insurers can take months to pay... (frequent experience)

In UK I sat in on a fascinating talk about costs of treatment injury where patients sued the hospital. The funds must be released on the day of the judgement and as the case was indefensible, the trust closed a ward and made the nurses redundant in order to save the cash.

Another case involved a birth injury 18 years earlier. All the staff were either dead or no longer in UK. Except for the midwifery student who was on placement. So when the family sued for treatment costs the hospital and the now fully trained mid wife had a defend themselves.

In any case this is off topic.
NZ drivers aren't held accountable to the law so we are dreaming if you think fear of insurance coverage will change behaviour when fear of the law doesn't.

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  # 2153749 3-Jan-2019 11:43
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A significant reduction of the road toll could be achieved by enforcing the wearing of seatbelts. 

 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/103343929/aa-research-shows-onethird-of-nz-road-deaths-caused-by-not-buckling-up

 

In about one third of fatalities, seatbelts were not worn.  It's simply bewildering.

 

The headline is misleading ... I don't think we can assume a seatbelt would have saved all those people.  But it would have saved many.  And of course there will be a much larger group of people who suffered severe injuries because they weren't wearing.





Mike

 
 
 
 




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  # 2154108 3-Jan-2019 20:54
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MikeAqua:

A significant reduction of the road toll could be achieved by enforcing the wearing of seatbelts. 


https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/news/103343929/aa-research-shows-onethird-of-nz-road-deaths-caused-by-not-buckling-up


In about one third of fatalities, seatbelts were not worn.  It's simply bewildering.


The headline is misleading ... I don't think we can assume a seatbelt would have saved all those people.  But it would have saved many.  And of course there will be a much larger group of people who suffered severe injuries because they weren't wearing.



This I find truly bizarre.

Jimmy Saville fronted a campaign with the slogan Clunk Click Every Trip when I was a child in the 70s.

Just about anyone who saw it will recall it and it drilled into us even then that seatbelts are not optional.

If you add all these various things together, it's sometimes hard to avoid the conclusion that People actually want to die in car accidents.





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  # 2154196 3-Jan-2019 23:24
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dejadeadnz:

 

Quite simply, can someone tell me why, for example, a supposedly decent kid from a decent family needs to be out with his mates at 4am?

 

Because they want to, we aren't living in a police state, and it's not really up to the Government to tell people when they have to go to bed.

 

Hell, when I was a teenager I was sometimes out until 3-4am with friends. In point of fact, among other things, I used to play marathon chess games with the kid next door, and it wasn't unknown for us to lose track of time and wind up playing that late. It also wasn't unknown for a group of us to hire a bunch of horror films and have film marathons.

 

I suppose by your definition I was an out of control chess and cinema yobbo, and therefore my family wasn't decent?

 

dejadeadnz:

 

I consider anyone who is law abiding, have a job when they have the capacity to have one, and who don't engage in anti-social behaviour to be decent.

 

My Dad lost his job in the 80s (restructuring/redundancy) and was out of work for 3-4 months until he got another one. He had the capacity to have a job, but didn't have one. Are you trying to tell me my family wasn't a decent one?

 

 


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  # 2154259 4-Jan-2019 10:50
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Funny how someone yet again chooses to selectively pick out a few lines in a long post to go on his own little agenda-filled rave. No one wants a police state; no one has suggested that the police be able to arrest anyone for being out on the road at 4am. What I was suggesting, however, is that we stop shying away from the reality that members of the high risk groups I pointed out (typically a bunch of young males) driving around at 4am typically aren't going to abide by all driving laws, are (as a matter of human reality and through the mechanics of the circadian rhythm) likely to be highly fatigued, and that such drivers and the people who choose to get into a car with them are putting themselves and other road users at high risk.

 

In my experience of having seen hundreds of car crash-related prosecution files, I would tell anyone that I care about and anyone who would listen that it's not worth the risk of driving around with a bunch of young lads in your car in the early hours of the morning. This observation is backed up by objective statistics showing that the highest rates of crashes amongst at-risk drivers occur during this time. This kind of debate is the same crap as people who assert that all the ads telling people not to drive after having any alcohol are nanny state. Sure, driving below the alcohol limit is legal but it doesn't mean that driving after having consumed alcohol is the safest, most ethical (part of being an ethical person is to consider the risks that you unduly impose upon others for minimal gain/utility), and sensible thing to do.

 

Your examples about watching movies at home in the early hours simply aren't relevant to the debate and if you weren't set out on trolling, you'd realise this.

 

 

 

 


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  # 2154263 4-Jan-2019 11:03
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dejadeadnz:

 

Funny how someone yet again chooses to selectively pick out a few lines in a long post to go on his own little agenda-filled rave. No one wants a police state; no one has suggested that the police be able to arrest anyone for being out on the road at 4am. What I was suggesting, however, is that we stop shying away from the reality that members of the high risk groups I pointed out (typically a bunch of young males) driving around at 4am typically aren't going to abide by all driving laws, are (as a matter of human reality and through the mechanics of the circadian rhythm) likely to be highly fatigued, and that such drivers and the people who choose to get into a car with them are putting themselves and other road users at high risk.

 

In my experience of having seen hundreds of car crash-related prosecution files, I would tell anyone that I care about and anyone who would listen that it's not worth the risk of driving around with a bunch of young lads in your car in the early hours of the morning. This observation is backed up by objective statistics showing that the highest rates of crashes amongst at-risk drivers occur during this time. This kind of debate is the same crap as people who assert that all the ads telling people not to drive after having any alcohol are nanny state. Sure, driving below the alcohol limit is legal but it doesn't mean that driving after having consumed alcohol is the safest, most ethical (part of being an ethical person is to consider the risks that you unduly impose upon others for minimal gain/utility), and sensible thing to do.

 

Your examples about watching movies at home in the early hours simply aren't relevant to the debate and if you weren't set out on trolling, you'd realise this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Love it how you single out males driving at 4AM. Nice agenda against younger men owning cars and possibly enjoying their use, sure people do dumb things and get into dumb situations. If we remove the cases where people are intentionally breaking the law we can see the actual issue.
Which is the driver training. Lets single out people from Asian/Indian countries and Women while we are at it? I'm sure many people have an opinion of them but today in this world you cannot go shouting that now can you? 



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  # 2154266 4-Jan-2019 11:10
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@blakamin:

 

On TV here in Oz, we get shows like Highway Patrol, RBT, and your Motorway Patrol... You know who gets let off more times than anyone? People in NZ driving when they shouldn't be.

 

To sum it all up, Nobody in NZ takes driving seriously.

 

 

 

 

Funny you say that, for the first time in my life I got pulled over for more than one reason. After talking crap about my car with the officer for two minutes he offered me the option of what fine I wanted to have, He wouldn't tell me the penalty of each one but said I can pick either or. This was 2 weeks ago and I am still waiting for the fine in the mail.. Something tells me he couldn't be bothered to write me up even for one of them..



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  # 2154267 4-Jan-2019 11:12
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The difference between all the dumb slurs against different ethnicities and women versus the point I am making is that my assertions are backed up by reality. Go and look up the NZTA website for heaven's sake. And policing alone isn't the answer -- it's not illegal for a bunch of fatigued idiots who have been out all night against their circadian rhythm to drive per se at 4am but the reality is that their risk of wrapped themselves around a tree is plenty higher at that time. Police officers don't have the magic ability to detect whether you are fatigued from afar. The point is that people need to start dealing with reality a bit and stop just focusing on "My right to drive!", "I am a decent bloke just wanting to enjoy my souped-up car!" and whatever the hell else. How can you have driver's' education when people pointing out that activities that whilst not law-breaking but are nonetheless really dumb if you don't wish to get involved in accidents etc gets turned into some civil rights debate?

 

 

 

 


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  # 2154269 4-Jan-2019 11:31
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dejadeadnz:

 

The difference between all the dumb slurs against different ethnicities and women versus the point I am making is that my assertions are backed up by reality. Go and look up the NZTA website for heaven's sake. And policing alone isn't the answer -- it's not illegal for a bunch of fatigued idiots who have been out all night against their circadian rhythm to drive per se at 4am but the reality is that their risk of wrapped themselves around a tree is plenty higher at that time. Police officers don't have the magic ability to detect whether you are fatigued from afar. The point is that people need to start dealing with reality a bit and stop just focusing on "My right to drive!", "I am a decent bloke just wanting to enjoy my souped-up car!" and whatever the hell else. How can you have driver's' education when people pointing out that activities that whilst not law-breaking but are nonetheless really dumb if you don't wish to get involved in accidents etc gets turned into some civil rights debate?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No one made a slur, you just focused on a group of people and I added a contrast to that. The assertions I suggested are backed up by my own personal observations as a driver "for heavens sake".  I do not know what someone with a modified car did to you but it clearly must not have been nice. 

No one is trying to merely exercise their right to just drive a car when ever they want. I know some people with fast cars and I also used to be one. No one I knew would ever go out unless we were free from fatigue and safe to drive. Never once under the influence. I do not know anyone I cruised with that has crashed or been injured. I know of one guy who recently died, he was the one that did 200KPH+ and 20 somersaults past constellation a year ago. He was under the influence of a substance and intentionally set out to go fast and be an idiot. He got what we asked for.

 

You are using a very small group of NZ's motorists and then focusing on an even smaller group of idiots with an out of proportion claim. Your effort is best spent elsewhere. 


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  # 2154273 4-Jan-2019 11:47
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dejadeadnz:

 

Your examples about watching movies at home in the early hours simply aren't relevant to the debate and if you weren't set out on trolling, you'd realise this.

 

 

I wasn't typically watching the movies at home. 10-12 of us would watch them at someones place, and then we would go home. Typically in a car. Some of the guys were aged 15 (I was younger) and one of them would usually drop me home (you could drive and carry passengers at age 15 on those days).

 

You pretty much directly stated that no one who was a decent kid from a decent family had any reason to be out at 4am, with a clear inference that anyone who was wasn't from a decent family. I take exception to that. I consider that we were all decent kids from decent families. In my examples I tried to show how you were clearly wrong: we were going about our lawful business (other than most of us being too young to watch horror movies with those ratings), were causing no mayhem or harm, and had bona fide reasons to be out on the road at that time. 

 

Since you state you were a Police prosecutor I'm kind of surprised you are making the statements you have been. I would have thought that you would have known that there are many legitimate and lawful reasons to be out late and to drive a car. You can't simply state that anyone going about their lawful business at a particular hour is up to mischief; they likely aren't, have a right to be out, and are entitled to the benefit of the doubt. Condescending blanket statements about anyone who is young and out late not being decent kid from a decent family are a bit silly IMO.

 

If you did things like making those sorts of off-the-cuff allegations without evidence in court then I would have expected the defence and the judge to get more than a bit annoyed.

 

 


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