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RobDickinson
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  #2533826 3-Aug-2020 15:48
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Plus economically importing billions in oil isnt good for us especially as it props up middle east murderous 


networkn
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  #2533828 3-Aug-2020 15:52
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Obraik:

 

There is also the health aspect to consider on top of the climate benefits. With the recent world wide lock downs we visually saw how much pollution was in the air of our cities caused by vehicles that we end up breathing in. There have been numerous studies on what those vehicle fumes do to our health. This is rather outdated now but in 2001 the Ministry of Transport completed a study that found 399 people died each year from vehicle pollution - higher than the 2019 road toll. This is more recent but includes all air pollution, not just from vehicles

 

 

Which is fine, except that the impact to the environment from extracting Lithium and related metals isn't exactly nothing, EV's are typically heavier if I am not mistaken, which will have an impact on other particulates on the environment...

 

I am not grinding an angle here. I have no horse in the race (yet), I am simply trying to get to the bottom of where things actually stand. I don't really like the Telsa as much as say the new comparable brands with ICE, but I do want to do my part for the environment. I want to make sure that

 

the compromise of moving to EV on the other factors in car ownership will have a meaningful and worthwhile impact.

 

 


RobDickinson
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  #2533829 3-Aug-2020 15:55
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networkn:

 

Which is fine, except that the impact to the environment from extracting Lithium and related metals isn't exactly nothing, EV's are typically heavier if I am not mistaken, which will have an impact on other particulates on the environment...

 

I am not grinding an angle here. I have no horse in the race (yet), I am simply trying to get to the bottom of where things actually stand. I don't really like the Telsa as much as say the new comparable brands with ICE, but I do want to do my part for the environment. I want to make sure that

 

the compromise of moving to EV on the other factors in car ownership will have a meaningful and worthwhile impact.

 

 

The model 3 is about 150-200kg heavier than the ICE counterparts and you dont need to use the brakes on it in normal operation. 

 


Lithium is a whole lot better than oil extraction and is entirely reusable, plus batteries dont really even use much of it. They are mostly nickel 




dacraka
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  #2533846 3-Aug-2020 16:25
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networkn:

 

Where are you paying 12c ? I am paying either 19 or 21c?

 

Where could I find an "unbiased" report that will in relatively simple terms do a proper comparison?

 

I mean, I know, that Li-ION extraction and processing IS pretty intensive..

 

 

If you charge your EV on the night rate in off-peak hours, Meridian are one example of a power company that gives EV owners 12c/kWh and that is in expensive Auckland!

 

Tesla Referral Code/Link: https://ts.la/phillip76264


wellygary
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  #2533849 3-Aug-2020 16:31
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RobDickinson:

 

Plus economically importing billions in oil isnt good for us especially as it props up middle east murderous 

 

 

-   [Stay on target] (appropriate star wars quote inserted)

 

The behaviour of countries home to lithium and cobalt mining ain't exactly stellar, but that's not the point under discussion


RobDickinson
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  #2533852 3-Aug-2020 16:34
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wellygary:

 

RobDickinson:

 

Plus economically importing billions in oil isnt good for us especially as it props up middle east murderous 

 

 

-   [Stay on target] (appropriate star wars quote inserted)

 

The behaviour of countries home to lithium and cobalt mining ain't exactly stellar, but that's not the point under discussion

 

 

 

 

What like Australia (for their lithium)?

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1286867520314642443

Tesla do use cobalt and do try source it as ethically as possible, and limit its use as much as possible ( the SR+ in China now uses no cobalt) 


morrisk
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  #2533861 3-Aug-2020 17:04
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networkn:

 

RobDickinson:

 

You are not buying a model 3 to save money specifically (well the purchase price) like you could do with a used leaf

Compare the running costs vs equivalent BMW or Mercedes. 

 

 

Well, to be honest, the way EV has been pitched, is to save the planet, but what I've read to date, is that the gap isn't anywhere *near* as significant as what was originally stated. The problem with getting to the bottom of it, is that each side has a reason to uplift their end of it.

 

 

 

 

You may debate the size of the gap but there are now many countries that have decided that the gap is significant enough to announce dates when they will phase out ICE cars.

 

So I think there is little debate and many countries have "got to the bottom of it" and made their decision.




networkn
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  #2533863 3-Aug-2020 17:09
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morrisk:

 

You may debate the size of the gap but there are now many countries that have decided that the gap is significant enough to announce dates when they will phase out ICE cars.

 

So I think there is little debate and many countries have "got to the bottom of it" and made their decision.

 

 

Gotta love the pro EV preachy attitude.

 

Announcing and actually doing are two different things.

 

If the evidence is so crystal clear, then there should be plenty of easy to access and straight forward research that shows that.

 

That's what I asked for.

 

 

 

 


morrisk
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  #2533885 3-Aug-2020 18:14
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No not pro EV but certainly pro evidence. It happens that the evidence as I have assessed it supports  transition to EVs.

 

 

 

I did this research some time back and when I have the time I will come back to you with the evidence that I see as supporting my position. You might like to also look for yourself as you may not I suspect find anything that i refer you to as convincing. It is not hard to find.

 

In terms of the evidence of the countries that have made the "announcement" but not actually done it - you can find a list here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_banning_fossil_fuel_vehicles

 

 

 

 


networkn
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  #2533969 3-Aug-2020 19:04
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I apologise, my tone probably reflected what I have felt is an overarching judgy (If you don't buy an EV you are stupid/don't care about the planet) vibe I often sense in this thread (and other EV threads too). I apologise if I misread.

 

I would be keen to see what evidence you used to make your decision, thank you. Part of what makes it a bit more difficult from my perspective, is that the car I want doesn't exist (high performance EV Wagon). I keep wondering, if I just buy something else and hope what I want is available next time around.

 

The information I had seen recently (though I can't find it right now), is that the size battery the Tesla S uses, cost the same in CO2 emissions as an ICE vehicle would use in it's first 130K+ of KM's driven (Sorry, the exact numbers I can't find this second). Obviously, this doesn't account for the extra KM's after this, but it was a surprise to me. I guess short of a bike, there will be a compromise to make. Oil is dirty to extract and transport, and obviously in NZ we do use a fair amount of renewable energy too, but ICE vehicles get more and more efficient all the time as well.

 

 


RobDickinson
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  #2534001 3-Aug-2020 20:20
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The information I've seen is that fossil fuels contribute massively to global warming and local pollution. I can if I bother too find about a million studies that say just that with evidence and science to back them up.

 

 

 

Good luck on waiting for an EV wagon, MG are making one but its not particularly high performance, its a small part of a small market these days, Audi might do one in 5 or 10 years.


Obraik
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  #2534057 3-Aug-2020 21:09
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networkn:

 

I apologise, my tone probably reflected what I have felt is an overarching judgy (If you don't buy an EV you are stupid/don't care about the planet) vibe I often sense in this thread (and other EV threads too). I apologise if I misread.

 

I would be keen to see what evidence you used to make your decision, thank you. Part of what makes it a bit more difficult from my perspective, is that the car I want doesn't exist (high performance EV Wagon). I keep wondering, if I just buy something else and hope what I want is available next time around.

 

The information I had seen recently (though I can't find it right now), is that the size battery the Tesla S uses, cost the same in CO2 emissions as an ICE vehicle would use in it's first 130K+ of KM's driven (Sorry, the exact numbers I can't find this second). Obviously, this doesn't account for the extra KM's after this, but it was a surprise to me. I guess short of a bike, there will be a compromise to make. Oil is dirty to extract and transport, and obviously in NZ we do use a fair amount of renewable energy too, but ICE vehicles get more and more efficient all the time as well.

 

 

 

 

I think the tone you experience comes mostly from frustration. There are some dud "studies" out there commissioned by industries that serve to benefit from spreading doubt about the electrification of transport. I suspect the one you're referring to is from the IFO in Germany which claimed that a diesel Mercedes could contribute less emissions than a Model 3. There was some iffy math being done to get to that conclusion and I recommend reading through the entirety of this page to see how their conclusion was wrong and why, based on multiple sources. Frustration also comes from people being more willing to believe the negative studies but question the positive. I guess that comes from the "if it seems too good..." idea.

 

As for the EV option for you, have you considered the Tesla Model Y? No it's not a station wagon but it's about as low to the ground as a Model 3


jonathan18
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  #2534081 3-Aug-2020 21:28
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Obraik:

 

As for the EV option for you, have you considered the Tesla Model Y? No it's not a station wagon but it's about as low to the ground as a Model 3

 

 

Any word on when we can expect the Y here? Couldn't see anything on Tesla's NZ website; I'm interested in seeing one of these in the flesh, primarily to see if that boot space is indeed much more substantial than the 3's...


RobDickinson
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  #2534084 3-Aug-2020 21:30
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jonathan18:

 

Obraik:

 

As for the EV option for you, have you considered the Tesla Model Y? No it's not a station wagon but it's about as low to the ground as a Model 3

 

 

Any word on when we can expect the Y here? Couldn't see anything on Tesla's NZ website; I'm interested in seeing one of these in the flesh, primarily to see if that boot space is indeed much more substantial than the 3's...

 

 

 

 

The boot is huge but no, none of the RHD countries can order and we dont even know what factory they might be made in, I am assuming Berlin but could easily be wrong.


networkn
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  #2534087 3-Aug-2020 21:37
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I think the tone a lot comes from the overarching superiority that a lot of EV owners feel they are entitled to, and it sucks the oxygen from the discussion. Not everyone displays it, but it's pretty offputting. It's pretty much impossible to have anything negative to say about EV's/Teslas without getting shouted down.

 

An EV won't suit or isn't suitable for everyone and that should be OK.

 

If someone asking genuine questions about the suitability of EV for *them*, or in general annoys people, then those people should just opt to say nothing in my view.

 

I'd really like to chat with someone who has an S and who drives it regularly in a spirited manner. Is this more of a general Tesla discussion thread? I don't see a discussion on the S.

 

 


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