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832 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2252033 5-Jun-2019 12:41
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Benoire:

 

sen8or:

 

As above, I don't advocate for an "acceptable casualty rate", but its all but impossible for there not to be one. We should be making our roads safer through technology improvements, using better roading surfaces, putting barriers up where appropriate, adding additional passing lanes and/or dual carraige way roads and driver education rather than simply burying our heads in the "speed is evil" sand bucket!

 

 

The cost of roading is substantial, asphalts are incredibly costly in NZ (I managed a 300m rebuild to slightly less than European standards in Auckland for Structural AC at 10x the cost for what I did a KM in before I left London).  We have limited budgets, limited supply of bitumen that is costly, not many coating plants across the country and a funding regime which tries to sweat the asset because the cost to build for low operational expenditure is crippling from a capital perspective.  A lot of the older roads where not designed around modern car speeds and the geometries are not even to standard, hence why we have a lot of advisory curve signs on the rural network.  Fixing them to a modern standard for sight distance, safe avoidance etc. is too much for the regions to bear and as such either passing lanes or barriers is the best option.  Where this cannot be done due to financial availability from the NLTP then reducing speed limits is the best approach at reducing harm.

 

Remember reckless behaviour can be from an accidental issue as well as a pre-determined thought, but the consequences can be far far worse and we should be doing our very best to reduce the chance of the consequence.  Humans are not very good at resisting kinetic energy.  As Kinetic energy is mv2, the velocity is the most important part of the equation, aka speed and we can only tolerate 30 kph on foot or bike and upto 70 kph in a vehicle, anything more than that and the risk of death or serious injury increases substantially... This is why there is a focus on speed as a method to reduce death and serious injury on the road network.

 

 

 

 

Undoubtedly the cost is expensive, which is why there are multiple approaches that could be taken, the Govt just go for the easiest.

 

An interesting cost/benefit study could be the cost of the road works (whichever method they take), less the cost of accidents etc, then see how much they really cost the taxpayer? Not sure the data would support the spend or if its even available.


14313 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2252086 5-Jun-2019 13:22
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Until the roads can be improved then reducing speed limits seems to me to be a logical and prudent move. This should also be coupled with more speed and red light cameras.





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


 
 
 
 


4101 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2252097 5-Jun-2019 13:40
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How about we throw out speeds based on miles per hour (ie 50 and 70km/h) and go with;

100 for engineered motorways and highways (110 in places like the Waikato expressway).
80 for all other 'open' roads
60 for suburban arterials
40 for suburban and CBD streets.

And then tweak it from there.




Areas of Geek interest: Home Theatre, HTPC, Android Tablets & Phones, iProducts.

gzt

10945 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2252117 5-Jun-2019 14:46
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This is almost non-news. Open road is predominantly rural area where no vehicle in existence can actually travel at that speed on most of that road in reality.

1494 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2252124 5-Jun-2019 14:59
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gzt: This is almost non-news. Open road is predominantly rural area where no vehicle in existence can actually travel at that speed on most of that road in reality.

 

Challenge accepted 😬


1930 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2252146 5-Jun-2019 15:37
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What a load of codswallop
How is it, that race cars can do 2x,3x the speed limit on our very worst roads. Are the roads really so unsafe, it seems not.
Yes we use our very worst unsealed roads for racing. Stop saying its the roads.

 

Its the driver.

How serious are we about safety. Not just words. Actions
They enforce helmets for pushbikes & motorcycles, but car drivers somehow exempt. Head injuries can be ignored in cars it seems  .

 

How is it that old, seriously unsafe cars and vans are still allowed on the road. Work Vans with abysmal crash protection. Old cars with abysmal
crash protection (I only just got rid of mine) . Vans that dont meet NZ regs but are still allowed into NZ .

Have Traffic Cops in giving out tickets in shopping centre car parks rather than being out on the road (yes, that happens)
Have so few roadside booze breath tests that it can be years before you get caught
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/111211439/number-of-police-drinkdrive-breath-tests-drops-by-more-than-a-million-in-five-years

 

Lets just go for the easy to do option , so that it looks like we're doing something.

 

 


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  # 2252150 5-Jun-2019 15:46
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1101:

 

What a load of codswallop
How is it, that race cars can do 2x,3x the speed limit on our very worst roads. Are the roads really so unsafe, it seems not.
Yes we use our very worst unsealed roads for racing. Stop saying its the roads.

 

Its the driver.

 

 

What a load of nonsense. What a race car can do has no relevance to the public road. 





Mike
Retired IT Manager. 
The views stated in my posts are my personal views and not that of any other organisation.

 

There is no planet B

 

 


 
 
 
 


1010 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2252203 5-Jun-2019 16:35
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1101:

 

What a load of codswallop
How is it, that race cars can do 2x,3x the speed limit on our very worst roads. Are the roads really so unsafe, it seems not.
Yes we use our very worst unsealed roads for racing. Stop saying its the roads.

 

Its the driver.

How serious are we about safety. Not just words. Actions
They enforce helmets for pushbikes & motorcycles, but car drivers somehow exempt. Head injuries can be ignored in cars it seems  .

 

How is it that old, seriously unsafe cars and vans are still allowed on the road. Work Vans with abysmal crash protection. Old cars with abysmal
crash protection (I only just got rid of mine) . Vans that dont meet NZ regs but are still allowed into NZ .

Have Traffic Cops in giving out tickets in shopping centre car parks rather than being out on the road (yes, that happens)
Have so few roadside booze breath tests that it can be years before you get caught
https://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/111211439/number-of-police-drinkdrive-breath-tests-drops-by-more-than-a-million-in-five-years

 

Lets just go for the easy to do option , so that it looks like we're doing something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn't agree with you more. It's not the roads - it's the useless drivers.


122 posts

Master Geek


# 2252207 5-Jun-2019 16:45
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My take on this is that we have become less accepting of early deaths. Last century work place deaths were more accepted, having one of your 10 children dying was more or less expected, plane crashes were expected.  Society has changed and now we will no longer accept 300 per annum deaths on our roads. While calls for better driver education and safer roads/cars are valid,  society is saying we don't accept the 20 years x 300 = 6,000 deaths while we wait. 

 

I guess in the long term, this will be fixed with technology - driverless cars 

 

Unfortunately , anyone with a drivers licence is being told we have to change our ways.  Just like we've had to change our attitudes to women and minority groups. 

 

Embrace it rather than fight it.

 

You'll lead a happier lifeπŸ˜„

 

 


1926 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2252231 5-Jun-2019 17:20
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1101:

 

What a load of codswallop
How is it, that race cars can do 2x,3x the speed limit on our very worst roads. Are the roads really so unsafe, it seems not.
Yes we use our very worst unsealed roads for racing. Stop saying its the roads.

 

 

What racing is done on our road network that isn't done by a top class race driver in specially conditioned vehicles?  I can only think of WRC that meets that criteria?  The very reason we have so many advisory curve speeds on the rural network is because the geometry doesn't meet actual real life design criteria for the normal person.

 

For urban areas speed limits should be related to the most vulnerable user at the point of no protection, i.e. pedestrian crossings, intersections etc. which ~30kph; rural roads can be higher but even then a car on car conflict at 71kph+ has a high risk of DSI... Driver education WILL not eradicate the issue of errant and reckless behaviour, only separation or speed will.  The purpose behind the speed reductions is the reduction in kinetic energy absorbed by bodies in a crash and remember that the person that initiated the crash may not be the one who suffers the consequences, it could be an innocent party who was driving well and in line with the right behaviour.


44 posts

Geek


  # 2252235 5-Jun-2019 17:34
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There are so many posts on this thread that are so depressingly unbalanced or whatabout-isms.

 

I offer this link;

 

https://tranzport.wordpress.com/2019/06/05/why-do-we-think-its-okay-to-speed/


517 posts

Ultimate Geek

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  # 2252237 5-Jun-2019 17:40
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Benoire:

1101:


What a load of codswallop
How is it, that race cars can do 2x,3x the speed limit on our very worst roads. Are the roads really so unsafe, it seems not.
Yes we use our very worst unsealed roads for racing. Stop saying its the roads.



What racing is done on our road network that isn't done by a top class race driver in specially conditioned vehicles?  I can only think of WRC that meets that criteria?



How about the Targa?

Anyone can have a go, often in cars with significantly less driver aids and at much higher speeds than people are killing themselves in normally.

1739 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2252277 5-Jun-2019 18:26
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I find it amusing when people here say our roads aren't up to driving at a reasonable speed (which I'd assess as 100kph on the open road).  I lived in the UK for quite a while, where many roads have the "unrestricted" national speed limit of 60mph (95kph), that kiwi drivers would consider unbelievably narrow (see example here for instance: https://goo.gl/maps/2cdVDAE1DihHsgwp6)

 

And yet we're saying open roads in NZ (like this one: https://goo.gl/maps/g6pideCgi6gCKJJU6 ?) need to be limited to 80kph?

 

There's a difference between maximum legal speed and maximum safe speed.  Drivers need to understand this and act accordingly.  And as above, we need to remove the Darwin factor from the statistics - ie people dying of stupidity by driving unrestrained, intoxicated, drugged, in unsafe vehicles or racing the police).

 

It's very predictable that the car-hating greens would want a lower speed limit and have presumably briefed NZTA to come up with this.  Hopefully Labour will realise it would be political suicide - maybe it will be the  "shower heads and light bulbs" moment for this government?

 

 


399 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2252313 5-Jun-2019 19:28
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Roads in NZ are pretty bad vs Canada and the US. If you took the 100kmh roads in NZ and put them in Canada.....most of them wouldn't be 100kmh. A lot of the NZ State highways would definitely not be 100kmh in Canada. Not even sure they would be considered highways. They're more like the secondary roads in New Brunswick at 70,80, maybe 90kmh.


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