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3073 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2338572 17-Oct-2019 08:03
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BlinkyBill:

Bung:
SirHumphreyAppleby:


The only circumstances I can think of under which you could be liable is if the vehicle weren't roadworthy and the driver was unaware of that fact.




I'm not a lawyer either but apparently if you allow another person to drive your vehicle for your benefit eg drive you home because you are over the limit or because they are working for you then you are also liable for any damage. You should be ok if they are using the car for their own benefit.


it would be good if people didn’t make up stuff, as made up ‘advice’ only causes issues.





I declared that I wasn't a lawyer but my examples were from "Tort Law in New Zealand" by Stephen Todd to counter the idea that the driver is solely responsible in all cases. Found by searching "car owner's vicarious liability nz"

616 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2338575 17-Oct-2019 08:04
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SirHumphreyAppleby:

 

BlinkyBill:

 

A driver of any vehicle is totally responsible for the vehicle, including it’s state of road worthiness and insurance, whether they own the vehicle, are renting it, or are borrowing it.

 

 

So even if the vehicle has a known but hidden fault that could cause an accident, and the owner fails to tell the driver of the issue, it's always the driver's fault?

 

I somehow doubt that.

 

What if my car were to develop a 'fault' where failing to flick a switch resulted in the vehicle disabling the brakes and suddenly veering right when the speed exceeded 100kmh^-1. Would I escape liability for 'accidentally' ridding the world of a car thief and perhaps a couple of innocent bystanders?

 

 

For goodness sake! There is a ‘reasonableness’ defence in law. The driver has to take reasonable steps. The driver shouldn’t drive an unlicensed, un-wof’ed, un-insured vehicle. If the car develops a sudden fault/failure then the driver can’t reasonably anticipate that.

 

why make up ridiculous scenario’s?





BlinkyBill


 
 
 
 


869 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2338582 17-Oct-2019 08:19
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Did the driver know your car wasn't insured? Would the have driven it if it wasn't?

 

If I was the driver and had borrowed a car, the presumption would be that the vehicle is insured unless I was told otherwise. If I then chose to drive an uninsured car, its on me. If you didn't advise the driver of the insurance status, you could be negligible. I don't think you would be directly liable to the insurance company, but possibly by a claim by the driver for failure to disclose. Does the driver have house and/or contents insurance? There may be cover in one of those for liability insurance, but that may be a stretch.

 

Deny the liability and pass on the drivers details to the insurance company, let them sort it out.

 

If they come back saying you are still liable, then I'd go and seek legal advice.

 

 


Banana?
4902 posts

Uber Geek

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  # 2338585 17-Oct-2019 08:21
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I'd be pretty annoyed at your mate for giving out your details.

 

You weren't driving, how can you be liable?

 

Your mate owes you for your car, and owes them for theirs too.

 

Write back and say you weren't driving, and give them the details of who was.


616 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2338589 17-Oct-2019 08:26
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Up yours!

I declared that I wasn't a lawyer but my examples were from "Tort Law in New Zealand" by Stephen Todd to counter the idea that the driver is solely responsible in all cases. Found by searching "car owner's vicarious liability nz"

 

Apologies, I didn’t mean to include your comment in with Humphrey’s. Editing error on my part. Your comment is correct.





BlinkyBill


969 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2338590 17-Oct-2019 08:31
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Give the insurance company your mates details, and say they were the driver.

Your mate may well have given your details at the scene because they thought that's what they were supposed to do. I'd imagine they'd have been pretty rattled at the time too!

198 posts

Master Geek


  # 2338593 17-Oct-2019 08:35
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2 questions - Did the car have a current WoF? and was the driver licensed?

 

I still find it very hard to believe that insurance (at least 3rd party) is not compulsory.


 
 
 
 


1087 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2338596 17-Oct-2019 08:43
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BlinkyBill:

 

Apologies, I didn’t mean to include your comment in with Humphrey’s. Editing error on my part. Your comment is correct.

 

 

Well up yours from me too!

 

BlinkyBill:

 

A driver of any vehicle is totally responsible for the vehicle ... The driver has to take reasonable steps

 

 

At some point both reasonable ends and liability begins. My example may sound absurd to you, but that's deliberate. It's also technically possible do such things on modern vehicles, in some cases remotely. If someone were to do such things, the owner would have clear criminal liability.

 

A more realistic example would be if the owner had carried out hidden structural work on the vehicle to a sub-standard level. It would not be reasonable to blame the driver for an accident caused by such a defect. It would be reasonable to blame the person who carried out the work.

 

As with Bung's comment, I made it clear that IANAL. The key point of my comment is not to accept any liability. You never know what minor issue may come back to bite you in the arse.


618 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2338600 17-Oct-2019 08:51
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Yogi02:

 

I still find it very hard to believe that insurance (at least 3rd party) is not compulsory.

 

 

So owning a vehicle becomes more expensive, more out of reach for poorer people and insurance companies can screw over a captive audience? Yeah. Going to pass on that one. 


2547 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2338608 17-Oct-2019 09:14
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nathan: There’s no valid excuse for rear ending someone.

 

 

 

There are actually a few cases where there is - and this usually involves the 'in front' vehicle dangerously moving in to your path (e.g. changing lanes and braking, pulling out from a sidestreet/driveway without sufficient space/time to avoid them etc).


198 posts

Master Geek


  # 2338611 17-Oct-2019 09:18
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tehgerbil:

 

Yogi02:

 

I still find it very hard to believe that insurance (at least 3rd party) is not compulsory.

 

 

So owning a vehicle becomes more expensive, more out of reach for poorer people and insurance companies can screw over a captive audience? Yeah. Going to pass on that one. 

 

 

What do you expect would happen if your driving an uninsured car, you swerve to avoid an accident. Go up the curb, through a fence and crash into someones house taking out a corner of the house/building. The house becomes uninhabitable and you are liable for your car, fence, house repairs and additional costs?

 

Its not as far fetched as you might think and accidents are often more than just a small nose to tail on the motorway.


4243 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2338627 17-Oct-2019 09:30
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MzAliceD:  Or am I just getting the letter because it was my vehicle and the driver will also receive one?

 

You are getting the letter because generally if the vehicle was insured it would cover any party driving it...

 

 

 

Write back to them and say  there is no insurance and that your mate XXX was the driver and provide their details...

 

Does XXX  have any sort of insurance???  ( house, contents, car), if so they likely have public liability insurance as part of it, so they can claim on for this accident.


869 posts

Ultimate Geek


  # 2338629 17-Oct-2019 09:35
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tehgerbil:

 

Yogi02:

 

I still find it very hard to believe that insurance (at least 3rd party) is not compulsory.

 

 

So owning a vehicle becomes more expensive, more out of reach for poorer people and insurance companies can screw over a captive audience? Yeah. Going to pass on that one. 

 

 

 

 

If someone cant afford even 3rd party insurance, then yep, they shouldn't be on the road.

 

I agree though with insurance companies and the captive audience. Would take strong regulation by Govt, comcom to ensure that the 3rd party element wasn't excessive and that just opens up a whole can of worms.


1836 posts

Uber Geek


  # 2339603 17-Oct-2019 09:48
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sen8or:

 

If I was the driver and had borrowed a car, the presumption would be that the vehicle is insured unless I was told otherwise.

 

 

If I was borrowing someones car I'd ask if it was insured and not assume anything. If the car wasn't insured then I wouldn't drive it. There's way too many uninsured cars on NZ roads.


10 posts

Wannabe Geek


  # 2339604 17-Oct-2019 09:50
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trig42 I'd be pretty annoyed at your mate for giving out your details.

 

Its worth pointing out that under section 22.2 of the Land Transport Act 1998 "The driver or rider of the vehicle must, if required by an enforcement officer or any other person involved in the accident, give the officer or other person— (a) the driver’s or rider’s name and address; and (b) the name and address of the owner of the vehicle ;"

 

 

On the off-chance that it was a young driver responsible for the accident it might be worth looking at http://youthlaw.co.nz/rights/driving/accidents-insurance/ : "Your parents aren’t generally responsible for any damage that you’ve cause [i][sic][/i], no matter how old you are. You will be responsible. The exception is if they could have foreseen that the situation might happen, and could have stopped you."

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