Electric Vehicle Battery Failures: Nissan Leaf etc

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Electric Vehicle Battery Failures: Nissan Leaf etc - Be Prepared!

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frednz

1452 posts

Uber Geek

#2407663 27-Jan-2020 17:05

afe66: I found the data plot of the battery SOH vrs time very interesting and reassuring.

Looks like probably 1000s of data points showing there isn't an issue with lots of batteries failing.

Any mechanical thing will have a freak failure.

Reminds me of a friends petrol Hyundai bought new then had a complete engine failure and he ended up talking to CEO of hyundai nz who fixed it after local dealer wasnt interested..

All EV batteries degrade a bit every year (some more than others depending on fast charging etc etc) but I don't think the same can be said for petrol engines. You can buy, say, a 2007 petrol car without worrying about whether the engine is going to have to be imminently replaced! But, even a 5-year old EV might run into battery problems that an unsuspecting buyer wasn't expecting.

Nevertheless, I like EVs and will buy one as my next vehicle, but am well aware of all the pitfalls of EV ownership. For example, this article talks about "an increasing number of individual cell failures in 30kWh Leaf battery packs":

https://evsenhanced.com/services/30kwh-leaf-cell-imbalance-and-complete-cell-failure/

From the above:

We suspect that in many other countries, Nissan’s support there is the main reason why we haven’t seen more reports of these failures worldwide. However, in our home country of New Zealand the opposite is true. All 30kWh Leafs arrived in NZ as used imports which Nissan NZ have been unable or unwilling to offer battery support for.

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GV27

5422 posts

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#2407671 27-Jan-2020 17:23

I'd buy a new Leaf if it weren't for the degradation (and a lack of a four-way adjustable steering column - seriously, what gives?). But I also know the Hyundais and Teslas have comparatively little wear and the 'New' Leaf is still essentially using the same revised chemistry that Leafs since 2014 or so have been using. The whole Leaf line-up has been treated like a proof of concept with durability playing second fiddle.

I also suspect that this cavalier attitude towards product quality was a big reason Nissan's various governance issues have exploded in recent times. American EV forums are full of people saying they'll never buy a Nissan EV that doesn't have the same active cooling other cars have so eventually they will have to get with the program.

Unsure how the local EV repair scene will play out given the tyranny of distance and shipping issues with batteries, but hopefully places like Blue Cars have more options than just stripping down the EVs that are already here to keep the others running - who knows, over time we might end up with an upgrade path.

frednz

1452 posts

Uber Geek

#2407672 27-Jan-2020 17:30

GV27:

I'd buy a new Leaf if it weren't for the degradation (and a lack of a four-way adjustable steering column - seriously, what gives?).

This article may also be of interest:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7527339/Nissan-Leaf-owner-Phillip-Carlson-charged-33-000-new-battery-2012-electric-car.html

The title of the above article is:

"The costly reality of owning an electric car: How customers are being slugged $33,000 to repair cars only worth a fraction of the price - and why they can't travel long journeys"

Obraik

1962 posts

Uber Geek

#2407677 27-Jan-2020 17:45

GV27:

I'd buy a new Leaf if it weren't for the degradation (and a lack of a four-way adjustable steering column - seriously, what gives?). But I also know the Hyundais and Teslas have comparatively little wear and the 'New' Leaf is still essentially using the same revised chemistry that Leafs since 2014 or so have been using. The whole Leaf line-up has been treated like a proof of concept with durability playing second fiddle.

I also suspect that this cavalier attitude towards product quality was a big reason Nissan's various governance issues have exploded in recent times. American EV forums are full of people saying they'll never buy a Nissan EV that doesn't have the same active cooling other cars have so eventually they will have to get with the program.

Unsure how the local EV repair scene will play out given the tyranny of distance and shipping issues with batteries, but hopefully places like Blue Cars have more options than just stripping down the EVs that are already here to keep the others running - who knows, over time we might end up with an upgrade path.

This is why I recommend not buying a brand new Leaf. Until Nissan can join the modern age and put active thermal management in their EV don't give them your money. The MG EV at NZ$50k has basically the same range as the Leaf, is cheaper and it has active thermal battery management. Anyone looking for a "cheap" NZ new EV should get that over the Leaf.

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GV27

5422 posts

Uber Geek

#2407680 27-Jan-2020 17:48

frednz:

This article may also be of interest:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7527339/Nissan-Leaf-owner-Phillip-Carlson-charged-33-000-new-battery-2012-electric-car.html

The title of the above article is:

"The costly reality of owning an electric car: How customers are being slugged $33,000 to repair cars only worth a fraction of the price - and why they can't travel long journeys"

This story over and over again - early Gen 1 Leafs had a terrible chemistry. My understanding is they revised this for 2013 cars so this guy probably had one of the OG rubbish ones. Worth also noting that numerous batteries have been replaced in the US for 24kwh cars, and the current Leafs have either 40kwh or 62kwh packs.

If they've offered to replace his battery, it would likely be with the updated 24kwh pack, not the same crappy OG chemistry he originally had.

dafman

3791 posts

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Trusted

#2407731 27-Jan-2020 18:36

One has to wonder if Nissan's financial woes are the real reason for what looks like price gouging for battery replacement.

Range issues, high entry prices and battery degradation/replacement risk will keep me watching from the sidelines for quite a bit longer.

afe66

3124 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#2407793 27-Jan-2020 21:24

frednz:

afe66: I found the data plot of the battery SOH vrs time very interesting and reassuring.

Looks like probably 1000s of data points showing there isn't an issue with lots of batteries failing.

Any mechanical thing will have a freak failure.

Reminds me of a friends petrol Hyundai bought new then had a complete engine failure and he ended up talking to CEO of hyundai nz who fixed it after local dealer wasnt interested..

All EV batteries degrade a bit every year (some more than others depending on fast charging etc etc) but I don't think the same can be said for petrol engines. You can buy, say, a 2007 petrol car without worrying about whether the engine is going to have to be imminently replaced! But, even a 5-year old EV might run into battery problems that an unsuspecting buyer wasn't expecting.

Nevertheless, I like EVs and will buy one as my next vehicle, but am well aware of all the pitfalls of EV ownership. For example, this article talks about "an increasing number of individual cell failures in 30kWh Leaf battery packs":

https://evsenhanced.com/services/30kwh-leaf-cell-imbalance-and-complete-cell-failure/

From the above:

We suspect that in many other countries, Nissan’s support there is the main reason why we haven’t seen more reports of these failures worldwide. However, in our home country of New Zealand the opposite is true. All 30kWh Leafs arrived in NZ as used imports which Nissan NZ have been unable or unwilling to offer battery support for.

Really? You like EVs?

Thats not the impression your posting history suggests.

frednz

1452 posts

Uber Geek

#2407795 27-Jan-2020 21:31

afe66:

Really? You like EVs?

Thats not the impression your posting history suggests.

I like to buy anything on a "no surprises" basis, so I like doing a lot of research for a major purchase. The replies I have received on Geekzone have been extremely helpful and I will definitely buy a BEV or a plug-in hybrid as my next vehicle purchase!

GV27

5422 posts

Uber Geek

#2407878 28-Jan-2020 06:56

dafman: One has to wonder if Nissan's financial woes are the real reason for what looks like price gouging for battery replacement.

Range issues, high entry prices and battery degradation/replacement risk will keep me watching from the sidelines for quite a bit longer.

Nissan has many many problems, not just the Leaf. They've been touting a new GTR for about five years now and it keeps getting pushed out. They also struggle to develop desirable EVs while Renault keeps making inroads with the Zoe's development (it's frankly just a better car). Meanwhile, the hard-wearing Tesla and Hyundai cells just keep going and going and the EV offerings from them get more and more diverse. The 2nd Gen Ioniq is basically a palace compared to the Leaf.

tripper1000

1539 posts

Uber Geek

#2408284 28-Jan-2020 16:00

E.V.'s are not yet main stream, so the fact that you might struggle to get spare parts is no different to early adopters of any new technology. It cost $3k to replace the cracked screen on my first laptop. Doesn't mean laptops are bad, but means I was a (clumsy) early adopter.

The older E.V.'s or ICE are, and the more of them that are in wreckers, the easier it is to get parts for them. Unfortunately (or fortunately for the planet?) in NZ the off-grid/solar crowd quickly scoop up and re purpose used Leaf batteries, unlike used Ford Ranger motors, but the market will saturate sooner or later.

Because Leaf's have only recently started to come out of warranty world wide, the present is an awkward time for Leaf after-market support but it is growing.

Clearly someone quoting $30K either thinks you're rich and stupid or doesn't want the job.

tripper1000

1539 posts

Uber Geek

#2408289 28-Jan-2020 16:06

Due to dangerous cargo shipping regulations not keeping up with the times, while it has been easy to import a Leaf with a battery installed in it, it has been near impossible to import a Leaf battery without a Leaf attached to it which has constrained supply of factory new parts.

wellygary

7378 posts

Uber Geek

#2408305 28-Jan-2020 16:36

tripper1000:

Due to dangerous cargo shipping regulations not keeping up with the times, while it has been easy to import a Leaf with a battery installed in it, it has been near impossible to import a Leaf battery without a Leaf attached to it which has constrained supply of factory new parts.

I though the shipping problem was solved years ago

"David Vinsen, chief executive of the Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association says the Imported Motor Vehicle Industry Association has an agreed protocol with shipping companies that would remove barriers to shipping large lithium-ion battery packs to New Zealand. “We need to have a feed stock of batteries. It looked as though the ability to import used batteries was going to be precluded by the Dangerous Goods Act.”With that problem solved, the industry needs to find reliable supplies of batteries."

Mar 24, 2018

https://www.noted.co.nz/planet/planet-planet/how-citizen-scientists-revealed-an-electric-vehicle-problem

frednz

1452 posts

Uber Geek

#2409454 29-Jan-2020 08:22

One person asked Steve why he had replaced the whole battery pack instead of just the one set of cells in the hot area that were bad. Steve gave this interesting reply:

"Modules are up to $700 each. 16 x 700 = $11k plus. A new pack was actually cheaper and more consistent result.... Because I can sell the old pack. But can't sell the old modules …. if that makes sense."

https://m.facebook.com/groups/655827161203344?view=permalink&id=2606646929454681

Steve said the result is a 30kWh Leaf with an almost new battery. Steve took a very responsible approach and wouldn't sell the car until the battery problem had been fully resolved. I'm not sure that every owner would have taken this attitude and it shows how careful you need to be when buying a used EV and it really is advisable to get the battery fully checked out by an expert.

In any case, if you just replace a few faulty cells rather than the whole battery, how do you know whether more cells may fail soon after? Is it really sensible to just replace cells that are faulty if at some point you may have to replace the whole battery? There's just so much to know about owning an EV!!

Obraik

1962 posts

Uber Geek

#2409732 29-Jan-2020 15:05

frednz:

Steve said the result is a 30kWh Leaf with an almost new battery. Steve took a very responsible approach and wouldn't sell the car until the battery problem had been fully resolved. I'm not sure that every owner would have taken this attitude and it shows how careful you need to be when buying a used EV and it really is advisable to get the battery fully checked out by an expert.

In any case, if you just replace a few faulty cells rather than the whole battery, how do you know whether more cells may fail soon after? Is it really sensible to just replace cells that are faulty if at some point you may have to replace the whole battery? There's just so much to know about owning an EV!!

I mean, you're kinda describing what you should be doing with any used car (EV or not) you buy - take it to be assessed and see what condition it is in before you buy it.

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frednz

1452 posts

Uber Geek

#2409998 30-Jan-2020 09:16

Obraik:

frednz:

Steve said the result is a 30kWh Leaf with an almost new battery. Steve took a very responsible approach and wouldn't sell the car until the battery problem had been fully resolved. I'm not sure that every owner would have taken this attitude and it shows how careful you need to be when buying a used EV and it really is advisable to get the battery fully checked out by an expert.

In any case, if you just replace a few faulty cells rather than the whole battery, how do you know whether more cells may fail soon after? Is it really sensible to just replace cells that are faulty if at some point you may have to replace the whole battery? There's just so much to know about owning an EV!!

I mean, you're kinda describing what you should be doing with any used car (EV or not) you buy - take it to be assessed and see what condition it is in before you buy it.

True, but I did suggest it's advisable to get the battery checked out by an expert. This may not be as easy a task as getting a petrol vehicle checked over. This is because EV "experts" aren't nearly so common as ICE experts. This means that, particularly in a small town where the local garages don't know much about EVs it might be tempting for a buyer to accept the seller's assurances that everything is fine with the EV battery.

Actually, even when it comes to large car dealers, there's often poor advice given on EVs and some don't know much about them, even those responsible for selling them. Believe me, I have put this to the test on several occasions and the lack of knowledge about various aspects of EVs amongst car sellers suggests that, as EV uptake grows, more courses about EVs and their various features, advantages and disadvantages is needed. One large dealer ended up asking me questions about EVs as they could see that I had done a fair bit of research on the topic!

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