Elderly unlicensed driver buying a car

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#2564371 15-Sep-2020 14:42

Tockly:

We tried Age Concern, but as he hasn't done anything illegal they weren't able to assist. As always seems to be the way, they don't get any funding to prevent things, they just clean up the mess awards!

Not sure how him doing things illegal affects Age Concern and their ability to give advice or assist, nor why they would be involved in cleaning up the mess. My understanding is that Age Concern is about assisting the elderly, so wouldn't be relevant unless he was being ripped off by the car dealer or being prevented from buying the car.

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frankv

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#2564421 15-Sep-2020 15:04

I'd start by finding a way to effectively communicate with him. Does he have someone who he trusts who can ask him what he's up to? And offer him some kind of acceptable alternative to driving himself? It's likely that he thinks taxis (and, by irrational extension, Uber) are an expensive luxury. It might also be worth bringing the cost of insurance on the Merc into play... I'd guess it would be *very* steep, and might be enough to sway him away from that.

I do wonder what's behind his antagonism and antisocialism. People generally aren't like that, especially with family. It sounds like that is a fairly recent development, so what's the cause? Possibly if you can get that dealt with (and maybe Age Concern might be able to help you with *that*), the rest will fall into place much more easily.

Scott3

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#2564446 15-Sep-2020 15:35

Sounds like you are in a tricky spot. Obviously owning the car is not an issued, the issue arises if he drives it unlicensed on a public road.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the make & model of car. It is quite possible to do a large amount of harm in even a small car. If anything the lower bonnet height of a sedan poses lesser risk to pedestrians than the bonnet profiles of the SUV's and utes that are now common. As a side note, the very large size & turning circle of the S class increases the likelihood of minor car-park prangs relative to a smaller car.

If you have a rapport with the man, you could encourage him to go through the process of getting his drivers licence back. One of the earlier steps in this process when you are 75+ is to get a driving medical done. If he is deemed not medically fit to drive, this takes responsibility for this conversation off you, and onto a medical expert who has been through this process many times before.

Failing the above, you might have to want to consider finding out if you can make an appointment to see a local police officer.

What the police can do will vary depending on how the licence was lost. If he was disqualified, they can impound the car (for 28 days) the first time he is caught driving it. If he simply doesn't have a drivers licence, police can forbid him to drive on the first stop, and take more significant action on the second stop. Of course it would be great to avoid this, but I have no idea how far our police go with preemptive action with regards to unlicensed elderly drivers. I would hope they at least make efforts to have a discussion.

Tockly:

So I have just rung the car yard and explained the issue to them.

They're extremely unhappy that he's mucked them around and hopefully they decide not to continue with the sale of the car to him.

He had told them he had no license, which I guess is a start, but he told them he was buying it for his daughters to use. Both of whom have nothing to do with him. But you have to wonder about a car yard that will sell a car to an old man, with no license, without questioning things. Sigh guess they're just there to make money.

While I hear your frustration, I don't think too much blame can be put on a car seller.

It's perfectly legal for somebody without a licence to buy & own a car. My understanding is that is is not unheard of either. I know of elderly people that own cars but do not drive them. Friends, family, carers etc often drive elderly in their own cars.

Sounds like the man disclosed that he does not hold a licence, and described that he wanted to purchase the car for others to drive. Only real action for the dealer at this point is swap out a test drive for a test ride with a salesperson driving, and to ask if he would like the car delivered to his home, or have a licences driver pick it up. Untill you put shade over the willingness for others to drive, they had little reason to doubt his word.

Also, as you said, they car dealers do make money by selling car's, and if they refuse to sell him a car, he could simply just go to one of the many other dealers or private sellers that would.

allan

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#2564450 15-Sep-2020 15:38

Tockly:

As mentioned in my OP he has been banned from using the bus for his abusive nature. He's had his phone cut off, as he thought Spark were ripping him off, so he can't call a taxi and using Uber would be completely out of the question.

One of his daughters was happy to drive him around, until he was extremely abusive towards her in front of his lawyers no less, so she now wants nothing to do with him. It's an extremely difficult position to be in. He is not a very nice person when he doesn't get what he wants. And NO ONE wants to help! Ambulance at the bottom of the cliff as always!

As harsh as this might sound, I strongly suspect he has advancing dementia. Went though this with my Dad also. Among other things, the irrational thinking and angry outbursts tend to be indicators that this occurring.

https://www.alzheimers.org.nz/information-and-support/information/the-10-warning-signs

Edited to add: Neither my sister nor myself initially knew enough to realise this was what was happening with my Dad, but we attended an evening seminar on dealing with the elderly (not sure who ran it now) and there was a presentation from Alzeimers NZ and we realised he ticked most of the boxes.

surfisup1000

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#2565533 15-Sep-2020 19:18

If it is dementia and he is posing a threat to his own and others safety, I wonder if the OP can apply for some kind of medical intervention.

gregmcc

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#2565550 15-Sep-2020 20:03

Tockly:

wellygary:

This gent has now gone out and brought himself a V8 Mercedes S Class

Do I ring the car yard and let them know? Would they care?

Has he actually bought the car yet?, if the transaction has been done then its pretty much out of the car yard's hands..

But I think the best approach is probably via people they trust ( rather than police enforcement). what do his family think about it?... his neighbours? -

Also you might want to call someone like Age Concern and see if they have any advice on how to approach this ...

No he is in the process of buying the car at the moment.

His family and friends have trying to stop him but he was very abusive and dismissed them as "being a bunch of thieves after his money". He's a VERY difficult person to deal with. He told people that Covid was just his daughters way of trying to stop him going out of the house!!

We tried Age Concern, but as he hasn't done anything illegal they weren't able to assist. As always seems to be the way, they don't get any funding to prevent things, they just clean up the mess awards!

Does he have a power of attorney set up?, maybe you can go and see his doctor and get him declared unfit to manage his affairs and get the power of attorney activated and then you will have the legal right to stop this transaction from happening.

KrazyKid

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#2565587 15-Sep-2020 21:57

I'm sorry to say to the onset of dementia was my first thought was well. Of course I have no way of knowing but from what you have said it is a possibility.
Something to look into. What you say sounds like symptoms to me.

richms

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#2565597 15-Sep-2020 22:26

And I dont think this upcoming referendum will help with this. Perhaps the legal weed one might mellow the old guy out a bit tho...

Richard rich.ms

Tockly

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#2565718 16-Sep-2020 10:09

Update:

One of the mans daughters took him to the car yard and requested that the sale is cancelled. This followed on from my phone call to the yard, so the sale has been cancelled and the funds have been returned. It also came out that the yard knew he had no license but still allowed him to take the car for a test drive!!

His license was cancelled by his GP after an accident two years ago, however he still refuses to believe that this has happened.

His daughter explained at length that he is not allowed to drive as he has no license and that in no way shape or form would she be driving him around in a car of that type. His daughter also made him read the information on the NZTA website out loud to her so she could hear him actually read the information. If this fully sinks in only time will tell. However he was still extremely rude to her and basically acted like a two year old. But at least he's not driving, for now!!

As a number of you have asked, yes this man has suffered a major head injury in the past and we believe also in the early stages of dementia. His wife passed away coming up three years ago next month and he is getting increasingly more difficult to handle. He recently had a knee replacement done and they had to station a nurse by his bed 24 hrs as he kept getting up and walking off!! At that time he was tested by the mental health team, however he quickly cottoned on to what was going on and basically gave them the answers that they wanted!! He's a very smart man. He has been described by a family member as "mental, but not dumb!!"

I recently installed a landline phone for hard of hearing people and removed his old cordless phone. I talked to him about what I was doing and that I was taking the cordless phone away so he didn't get confused about which phone to use. He acknowledge that I was doing this and understood what I had said as he repeated it back to me. unfortunately he then proceeded to tell all his friends and family that I had stolen the phone from him and was taking money from his bank account! He's since had his phone disconnected as he stopped paying the bill as Spark were ripping him off and were listening to his calls!

As mentioned he's smart enough to know how far he can push things without actually getting the attention of the health authorities and Police. Until he does get there attention there is little they can do.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Hopefully things will quieten down for a bit till the next thing he does!

KrazyKid

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#2565751 16-Sep-2020 10:53

Glad you and his family are looking out for him.

It must be hard at times.

A thank-you on his behalf to you and the family.
I hope my family would be as considerate as you guys are when my turn comes.

frankv

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#2565798 16-Sep-2020 11:52

Tockly:

One of the mans daughters took him to the car yard and requested that the sale is cancelled.

His daughter also made him read the information on the NZTA website out loud to her so she could hear him actually read the information. If this fully sinks in only time will tell. However he was still extremely rude to her and basically acted like a two year old.

I recently installed a landline phone for hard of hearing people and removed his old cordless phone.

Ummm... the snippets above tell me that you and his daughter are not treating him as an adult capable of making his own decisions. It's not surprising that he's rude and angry, especially if he *can* make his own decisions. A better approach would be to *suggest* a change, such as getting a hearing-impaired phone. Give him reasons why you think it's a good idea. Also tell him if it will cost him more money, and any other downsides. And if he chooses not to, then that is his decision. Even if, in your opinion, it makes his life, or your life, more difficult.

As mentioned he's smart enough to know how far he can push things without actually getting the attention of the health authorities and Police. Until he does get there attention there is little they can do.

You probably are correct that he has Mental Health issues. Who doesn't? But, unless they're severe, taking over his life isn't going to help, and as much as you care, you don't have the right to do that. If you believe he has mental health issues, under IIRC Section 7 of the Mental Health Act you (or anyone else) can ask for him to be assessed. There's a bunch of steps which could ultimately lead to compulsory assessment by a psychiatrist and treatment or incarceration in a Mental Health facility. Your GP or DHB Mental Health service will be able to give you the definitive information.

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#2565804 16-Sep-2020 11:59

That is true, however the lines are blurred if one has an illness which partially incapacitates their mentation.

Fred99

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#2566010 16-Sep-2020 14:45

I know someone who's completely blind, older than that, and bought a new $700k F12 Berlinetta a few years ago. He probably thinks it's red - but it really isn't. He enjoys being driven in it - his wife hates driving it. I've thought about volunteering to be his driver (kind of like a local version of the movie The Intouchables - but much faster) but cars like that really do scare the bejesus out of me.

OTOH and more seriously, I had to enact EPA and get my father out of driving a few years ago, he was going downhill with dementia and unsafe. It's a very hard time - curse dementia.

Fred99

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#2566013 16-Sep-2020 14:54

frankv:

You probably are correct that he has Mental Health issues. Who doesn't? But, unless they're severe, taking over his life isn't going to help, and as much as you care, you don't have the right to do that.

Well maybe you do with EPA. One thing many people without first-hand experience of dealing with a family member with "dementia" may not realise is that it's not just loss of short-term memory etc, but even before that often significant personality change. When my father was going down, that was the first obvious change. He was assessed by a gerontologist / specialist, and passed with flying colours (this wasn't even Trump's specialist!). Six months later he drove into the back of a parked car, his car was still driveable so he did a runner and drove home. Having the accident could have happened to anybody - but doing a runner was 100% out of character. 6 months later he couldn't recognise me, 12 months later he died from dementia.

frankv

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#2566065 16-Sep-2020 16:12

Fred99:

frankv:

You probably are correct that he has Mental Health issues. Who doesn't? But, unless they're severe, taking over his life isn't going to help, and as much as you care, you don't have the right to do that.

Well maybe you do with EPA. One thing many people without first-hand experience of dealing with a family member with "dementia"...

Maybe. But there was no mention of EPA in the OP.

I agree that it's a difficult situation for all involved, and it does sound like MH issues. And I'm sure it's all with the best of intentions. I'm just trying to show a new, hopefully constructive, way of approaching the situation. If you start from the position that, as far as possible, the old guy is entitled to decide things for himself, you can maybe come up with a better strategy. (I acknowledge that "as far as possible" is a woolly subjective thing, and possibly he's beyond that point). If he wants to blow his savings on Mercedes and hookers, that's his prerogative. The examples of his "mental illness" were largely instances where someone foisted a change on him that he didn't like, and which he (over)-reacted to. I'm not completely buying that he's crazy, but smart enough to fool the experts... the obvious answer is another test. If it's a degenerative mental illness like Alzheimers, he won't be able to fool them for long.

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