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antonknee
486 posts

Ultimate Geek


  #2573329 24-Sep-2020 11:00
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1101:

 

it should be user funded : tolls and the SIGNIFICANT petrol tax increase to cover paying for it .

 

Of course, the true cost of driving is currently well obscured. Just like many other things are. My personal opinion is the costs of these should be properly borne by users - plenty of things people would stop doing if they had to actually pay their way.

 

If people want an unneccessary additional crossing, those people should pay for it. Particularly where it's shown to have negative benefits for everyone else.

 

1101:

 

If we need it done quickly , at low cost , we need to hand it over completely to a (say) chinese company & china based workers who can & do build these things very quickly.
Tell them just build it , no consents needed , no red tape, just do it .

 

Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I don't think for a minute our current process is at all efficient or effective, but I can't imagine free reign to an overseas entity is the way to fix that. 

 

 





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mudguard
1038 posts

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  #2573455 24-Sep-2020 12:25
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antonknee:

 

Of course, the true cost of driving is currently well obscured. Just like many other things are. My personal opinion is the costs of these should be properly borne by users - plenty of things people would stop doing if they had to actually pay their way.

 

If people want an unneccessary additional crossing, those people should pay for it. Particularly where it's shown to have negative benefits for everyone else.

 

 

The problem with user pays, is that outside main centres, infrastructure is extremely expensive, Punakaiki and Waimate Districts need new water distribution, but there's no way those tiny districts can pay for it.

 

Look at the motorway that leads south out of Dunedin. How long would it have taken for Dunedin ratepayers or drivers to fund that?

 

Was the current bridge built so high to cater for ships? Which ships exactly, the Chelsea sugar factory?

 

I think user pays is a slippery slope. I fill my recycle wheelie bin about every two months. Why should I pay for fortnightly collection? I never use the public library or pools, why should we have those? I may not need them, but I like that they are there. Same with the wheelie bin. Sometimes I might actually fill it in a fortnight, or rather my neighbour does :)


 
 
 
 


MikeAqua
6058 posts

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  #2573463 24-Sep-2020 12:52
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Why not partially fund a second harbour crossing with a toll.  Seems a good way to split payment between the community and direct users.  It's also how the original harbour bridge was partly paid for.  IIRC the toll was eventually removed during the 1980s.

 

 





Mike


Batman

Mad Scientist
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  #2573501 24-Sep-2020 13:37
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$ needed? Easy

Start charging toll for all akl motorways. When you have enough money build something else and charge money on the second one.

Don't need to charge a lot - a dollar/2 here and there.




Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


evnafets
205 posts

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  #2573529 24-Sep-2020 14:40
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Batman: $ needed? Easy

Start charging toll for all akl motorways. When you have enough money build something else and charge money on the second one.

Don't need to charge a lot - a dollar/2 here and there.

 

Except the bulk of the burden will probably fall on those possibly least able to pay for it. 

 

i.e. the working class 9-5ers who have to commute to work every day and don't have the option to work from home or use public transport.

 

If you are only able to afford a house out in the suburbs, then you get penalized by the toll road to commute into the city to work.

 

It ends up with the same cycle of the 'rich' being able to avoid the toll (live closer, and/or more likely to be able to work from home) while the 'poor' get lumped with the bulk of the cost - thus broadening the gap between them.

 

Not saying it is a bad idea - just that it isn't as 'easy' as you make out if you want an 'equitable' solution. 

 

 


GV27
2389 posts

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  #2573531 24-Sep-2020 14:43
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Batman: $ needed? Easy

Start charging toll for all akl motorways. When you have enough money build something else and charge money on the second one.

Don't need to charge a lot - a dollar/2 here and there.

 

Nah, no thanks. Why should I be tolled for driving on a congested motorway in North West Auckland, with no busway but a heap of new houses, pay a toll for using non-existant PT to build a better bridge for the North Shore, which has a busway and has done for some time?


Dunnersfella
3884 posts

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  #2573595 24-Sep-2020 16:06
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Imagine a toll on the Harbour Bridge... and just how many people would simply take the North Western instead.

 

Just put in more speed cameras instead, so that when we're all doing 7kph in traffic we can laugh at them.


 
 
 
 


Handle9
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  #2573610 24-Sep-2020 16:37
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GV27:

 

Batman: $ needed? Easy

Start charging toll for all akl motorways. When you have enough money build something else and charge money on the second one.

Don't need to charge a lot - a dollar/2 here and there.

 

Nah, no thanks. Why should I be tolled for driving on a congested motorway in North West Auckland, with no busway but a heap of new houses, pay a toll for using non-existant PT to build a better bridge for the North Shore, which has a busway and has done for some time?

 

 

Because the north shore is currently paying for the CRL that they get no benefit for.

 

These types of arguments get a bit tiresome. The only way any of this stuff gets built is by cross subsidization.


RunningMan
6135 posts

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  #2573682 24-Sep-2020 17:26
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Dunnersfella:

 

Imagine a toll on the Harbour Bridge...

 

Always used to be that way.


Dunnersfella
3884 posts

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  #2573693 24-Sep-2020 18:00
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RunningMan:

 

Dunnersfella:

 

Imagine a toll on the Harbour Bridge...

 

Always used to be that way.

 

 

 

 

Because it was done in the past doesn't mean it should be repeated.

 

Put simply, traffic doesn't go away, it's simply redirected.

 

Funding from multiple sectors is the key.


shk292
1975 posts

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  #2573704 24-Sep-2020 18:56
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From the perspective of someone who commutes from north of the city to Devonport, the bridge problem has been great.  It has reduced my morning commute by 15 minutes and evening one by 20 minutes.  The northern motorway northbound is very free-flowing.  


GV27
2389 posts

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  #2573928 25-Sep-2020 08:14
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Handle9:

 

Because the north shore is currently paying for the CRL that they get no benefit for.

 

These types of arguments get a bit tiresome. The only way any of this stuff gets built is by cross subsidization.

 

 

...and the Shore got a busway (funded from central government taxes and a contribution from the ARC) a decade before anyone else. Swings and roundabouts. Agree that mindless provincialism solves nothing - you can argue almost anything. But the key here is realising that the North Shore is one part of Auckland, and we have limited funds (we don't but let's say we do) to fix a lot of transport issues all over the whole city.

 

The fact this happened in this one week doesn't really much in the scheme of things, the real weakness is the lack of upgrade path for the Northern Busway. That will shape what kind of bridge/tunnel we need more than anything else, and what type of network it needs to connect with on the Southern shore. My personal preference is a Light Rail & Pedestrian bridge rather than spending $300m+ to add a walkway to the current one. 


BillyAnderson
18 posts

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  #2574883 27-Sep-2020 14:26
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Handle9:

 

Auckland would be the 3rd - 4th largest city in Germany. Pretty much every city in Germany of more than a few hundred thousand has light rail / trams / trains.

 

Functional public transport doesn't rely solely on large populations, it relies on a consistent and planned approach.

 

It doesn't rely solely on large populations, and I never said it did. It does also partly rely on population density. Auckland is simply far too spread out to have any properly functional public transport. Most of these other cities everybody keeps trying to compare Auckland to have much larger populations in a much smaller area. The two reasons for this are the narrowness of the peninsular where the city is between two harbours, and because most in New Zealand want to own a suburban house and garden (as opposed to living in high-density tower blocks as most people in those other cities do). 

 

Trying to compare Auckland (pop. 1.6million) with cities like Sydney (pop. 5.2million), Melbourne (pop. 4.9million), or even Toronto (pop. 2.9million), let alone London (pop. 8.9million), or anywhere else, is quite simply ludicrous. Auckland may cover approximately the same land area of London, but it's population (and therefore population density) is much, much lower. Even if they were able to be compared, all of those cities have congestion issues as well, many much worse, despite supposed "functional public transport" they have.

 

 


BillyAnderson
18 posts

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  #2574884 27-Sep-2020 14:28
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1101:

 

all this talk of a 2nd bridge/tunnel is just that , talk.

 

There are already two bridges, has been for decades. Any new Auckland Harbour crossing would be the third.
(Plus of course the long way around that doesn't cross the Harbour at all.)


mudguard
1038 posts

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  #2574900 27-Sep-2020 15:52
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BillyAnderson:

 

1101:

 

all this talk of a 2nd bridge/tunnel is just that , talk.

 

There are already two bridges, has been for decades. Any new Auckland Harbour crossing would be the third.
(Plus of course the long way around that doesn't cross the Harbour at all.)

 

 

If we are being pedantic then there are six or seven harbour crossings surely? I guess if the long way around avoids the motorway you don't need any crossings at all. Not sure I'd want to drive it though!


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