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axxaa
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  #2644096 29-Jan-2021 13:07
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I think that for most people having the ability to quickly refuel a car defiantly is a requirement. 


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Obraik
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  #2644098 29-Jan-2021 13:09
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axxaa:

 

I think that for most people having the ability to quickly refuel a car defiantly is a requirement. 

 

 

That's just not the reality. For daily commutes there is no wait time for refueling - it's quicker and easier than refueling an ICE vehicle. For road trips, see my previous post.


Jaxson
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  #2644100 29-Jan-2021 13:17
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mdooher:

 

Depends what you mean by "better"

 

 

 

 

I wish the cons were raised more, not from a dismissing perspective but as a genuine total ownership aspect.

 

EVs are more expensive, so presently buying new is an eco/personal choice purchase rather than a financial no brainer.

 

Perfect as a second around town car though.  I think all households should be considering EV if they own more than one vehicle and at least one is used primarily around town only.

 



If you buy an older one (down to much less max battery capacity) then you can get it quite cheap, and the petrol savings mean the time to pay off will be cool.
Butt you're then left eventually with a car that ultimately needs a new battery pack, which may cost much much more than you possibly paid for your cheap car.
And there's not much discussion around where those spent batteries are going, from an eco point especially.  (Or where to source from if it's a non local supported Japanese import model).


Plus:

 

  • the general range anxiety of an EV car (not that bad really, just plan around it) and slow charging (a real consideration and harder to work around if travelling out of town and needing a top up enroute).
  • modifications to house electrical supply to provide a high capacity ev charging point
  • larger infrastructure supply conversations around how to cover if everyone down a street suddenly comes home from work at the same time and starts plugging their cars in.
  • cool conversations around hedging your power supply and charging up at day rates and backfeeding your house with the energy stored in the car instead of expensive day rates (assuming residential on commercial time of use varying rate contract).

 

 

 

 

 

 

shanes:

 

There is going to be some HUGE runout sales soon :)

 

 

 

 

Depends if this restriction is on importing only or on selling. 
If only related to importing then it just means less choice buying new and likely to cost more perhaps too, as only 'better' cars will be making it through.




mdooher
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  #2644101 29-Jan-2021 13:21
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Obraik:

 

For nearly everyone, fueling a car that quickly is not a requirement. For the EVs that exist to day with 400-500km of range, that's 4-5 hours at a minimum of driving - no one should be driving that long non-stop. On those sort of journeys most people need to stop for food at some point, a 20-30 minute stop is all that's required to gain back 80% again. The car will be ready to go again before the driver is.

 

 

 

 

I drive from Dunedin to Christchurch non stop quite frequently. I don't need to stop and nor do I want to.

 

Driving from Queenstown to Dunedin via Ranfurly in brand new leaf...

 

1. needed to stop to charge (I didn't want to)

 

2. the stupid battery pack overheated because I don't drive like my grandmother (true these last two would only happen in a leaf)...

 

for me I would rather by a 10 year old 5 series petrol BMW than any electric car I could get for even close to that price.

 

as for a 10 year old EV...straight to the landfill





Matthew


Obraik
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  #2644110 29-Jan-2021 13:30
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Jaxson:

 

I wish the cons were raised more, not from a dismissing perspective but as a genuine total ownership aspect.

 

EVs are more expensive, so presently buying new is an eco/personal choice purchase rather than a financial no brainer.

 

Perfect as a second around town car though.

 

 

That's a pretty generic statement though. Plenty of EVs are fine as primary/only cars. If you're in the market for a more premium vehicle such as a BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc then the EV equivalents are around the same price. A Tesla Model 3 starts at the same price as the BMW 3 series. Audi's Etron is around the same price as the equivalent Audi Q7/8. Etc. The EV options all perform better than their ICE counterparts.

 



If you buy an older one (down to much less max battery capacity) then you can get it quite cheap, and the petrol savings mean the time to pay off will be cool.
Butt you're then left eventually with a car that ultimately needs a new battery pack, which may cost much much more than you possibly paid for your cheap car.
And there's not much discussion around where those spent batteries are going, from an eco point especially.  (Or where to source from if it's a non local supported Japanese import model).
Plus:

 

  • the general range anxiety of an EV car (not that bad really, just plan around it) and slow charging (a real consideration and harder to work around if travelling out of town and needing a top up enroute).
  • modifications to house electrical supply to provide a high capacity ev charging point
  • larger infrastructure supply conversations around how to cover if everyone down a street suddenly comes home from work at the same time and starts plugging their cars in.
  • cool conversations around hedging your power supply and charging up at day rates and backfeeding your house with the energy stored in the car instead of expensive day rates (assuming residential on commercial time of use varying rate contract).

 

This is a Leaf specific point. It does not apply to those EVs with proper thermal management of their battery pack. However, EV batteries are over 95% recyclable. They're so recyclable that Tesla's future production plans take into account that most of their production will eventually come from recycled packs.

 

  • Range anxiety is generally something that non-EV drivers talk about. I do not have range anxiety in my Tesla. There are no issues with "topping up" out and about while traveling out of town, nor are there issues with time to charge. 20mins to charge is quicker than it takes me to eat a meal.
  • Very minimal. Most will be able to charge their daily commute with a standard power outlet.
  • There is plenty of consented power stations to cover increased growth 

 

 

 

 

 


Obraik
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  #2644112 29-Jan-2021 13:34
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mdooher:

 

I drive from Dunedin to Christchurch non stop quite frequently. I don't need to stop and nor do I want to.

 

Driving from Queenstown to Dunedin via Ranfurly in brand new leaf...

 

1. needed to stop to charge (I didn't want to)

 

2. the stupid battery pack overheated because I don't drive like my grandmother (true these last two would only happen in a leaf)...

 

for me I would rather by a 10 year old 5 series petrol BMW than any electric car I could get for even close to that price.

 

as for a 10 year old EV...straight to the landfill

 

 

I can drive from Dunedin to Christchurch without stopping in my EV 😉

 

A Leaf is one EV, it is not all EVs. It's also still using technology from 2010 because Nissan has not invested anything in their EV technology since then which makes it a poor example of a modern EV.

 

Again, the whole 10 year thing is a Leaf specific problem due to them having no thermal management of their pack. Nearly all modern EVs today have this and it will mean that their pack outlasts the life of the chassis. As I've mentioned already, there are Tesla's with over 500k KM's on the dial that still have over 90% of their factory capacity remaining.


mudguard
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  #2644117 29-Jan-2021 13:41
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TwoSeven:

 

Not sure what the fuss is about - most new vehicles already likely meet this standard anyhow. I believe is Europe now the standard is 95g CO2/Km for cars (I think it started this year?)

 

 

It's pretty low. My Corolla is 2019 model so less than two years old. It's 2.0L NA motor doesn't meet the standard, in fact it's not even close. 

 

I drove 260kms today at 4.7L per 100km without driving like an idiot, that in theory is about the cutoff, so car engines will need to shrink.




Scott3

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  #2644137 29-Jan-2021 14:29
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shanes:

 

Yeah seems that way...

 

I had a quick look through the Ford website and they only sell a couple of PHEV models that meet the requirements. There is going to be some HUGE runout sales soon :)

 

 

Penalties don't kick in till 2023, so importers have some time to change their stock mix.

 

Also Penalties are cheap, so likely ford will just opt to miss the target and pay some.

 

 

 

axxaa:

 

I think that for most people having the ability to quickly refuel a car defiantly is a requirement. 

 

 

For people that it is, such cars will remain available. Petrol, diesel, hybrid, Plug in hybrids & hydrogen cars all tick this box.

 

However for many people this is not a requirement at all.

 

We have one EV and one Hybrid in our household. If we are going further than what our leaf can handle on a single (cira 25min) fast-charge, we just take the other car. Waking up every morning with the leaf charged (to 80% on weekdays to baby the battery pack), means we have enough range for our daily use without any charging stops.

 

In terms of replacing our other car, something like a Kona would do absolutely fine for us range wise. Realistic real world range of 450km. It's been a really long time since I have driven over 450km in a day, but if I needed to I don't think stopping for a 1 hour relaxed lunch somewhere with a fast charger would be an issue. Anything over 800km I would split over multiple day's, and pick accommodation with a 32Amp charger so I could be fully charged in the morning. Sadly the kona is both way to small and expensive to replace our SUV.

 

[edit] - places like Norway with a 54% pure electric car market share in 2020 show that a decent chunk of people are quite happy to deal with the limitations of electric vehicles when paired with favorable government policies.


MikeB4
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  #2644161 29-Jan-2021 15:24
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People need to realise that our lives need to change a little so that those that come after us won’t live in a nightmare world. Making a couple of stops on a trip is nothing compare to what our mokopuna and beyond may endure.

richms
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  #2644163 29-Jan-2021 15:44
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Is there a way to calculate g/km from how much 95 I put in the car? rightcar is giving me absurdly low figures for l/100km. Is that what they base it on? the BS efficiancy that manufacturers use in sales brocures rather than actual figures?





Richard rich.ms

Scott3

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  #2644190 29-Jan-2021 17:22
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mudguard:

 

It's pretty low. My Corolla is 2019 model so less than two years old. It's 2.0L NA motor doesn't meet the standard, in fact it's not even close. 

 

....

 

 

Yip. While weak compared to the 95g that the UK is doing this year, it represents a massive (cira 40%)reduction in emissions from what is currently entering our fleet.

 

Will need to see a big change in our fleet mix. Generally smaller, much more hybrid & plug in vehciles.

 

As an example if Lexus wants to sell RX350 (non hybrid SUV), 9.6L/100km, to stay under the target they would also need to sell one of their recently released UX300e electric SUV's.

If they instead sold the RX450h (hybrid SUV) 5.7/100, they could sell them at a ration of 3:1 with their electric car and stay under the limit.

 

 

 

Also consider:

 

  • Plug in hybrids are treated quite kindly in the rating system (i.e. outlander phev 44g co2/km) - Real world numbers depend entirely on what percentage of running is done on electricity. Apparently in the UK they are a common company car as they are cheap due to good emissions rating's. Many of these car's arn't ever plugged in as the companies provide fuel cards, but not rebates on home electricity. Quite a sad outcome. At least the will become available for private owners as used cars.
  • Fines are low. Automakers may well just make easy changes (i.e. Lexus drop the non hybrid RX suv), and price the fines into their higher emitting vehicles.

 

 

richms:

 

Is there a way to calculate g/km from how much 95 I put in the car? rightcar is giving me absurdly low figures for l/100km. Is that what they base it on? the BS efficiancy that manufacturers use in sales brocures rather than actual figures?

 

 

23.2 times L/100km = g CO2/km

 

 

 

I.e:

 

4.397 L/100km = 102g co2/km (fleet average requirements for cars and SUV's entering the fleet in 2025)

 

5.690 L/100km = 132g co2/km (fleet average requirements for utes and vans entering the fleet in 2025)

 

 

 

The system is based on rated value's on a test cycle.

 

Sadly weaknesses of such system's include:

 

- Automakers will optimize their vehicles to do really well on the test cycle, and may do a lot worse in the real one. One example of this is small displacement turbo engines. They do really well if you stay off the boost (keep RPM down), and are sized to be able to do that on the test cycle. But if you drive it hard those numbers go out the window. Likewise if you tow a big trailer.

 

- Aftermarket modifications (Roof racks, roof box, non eco tires, A/T or M/T tires etc.) will make the car fail to meet the rated numbers.

 

- System may encourage somebody to buy a hatchback (and put a roof box on it), instead of a wagon, where the wagon would be the more economical in the real world.

 

- Encourages diesel vehicles which are efficient but bad for urban air quality.

 

 

 

Don't pay to much attention to the emissions of your current car regarding the standard. Basically no non hybrids meet the standard currently. It only applies to cars entering the fleet in 2025 (with some kind of lesser level kicking in in 2023).


TwoSeven
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  #2644237 29-Jan-2021 19:56
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mudguard:

 

TwoSeven:

 

Not sure what the fuss is about - most new vehicles already likely meet this standard anyhow. I believe is Europe now the standard is 95g CO2/Km for cars (I think it started this year?)

 

 

It's pretty low. My Corolla is 2019 model so less than two years old. It's 2.0L NA motor doesn't meet the standard, in fact it's not even close. 

 

I drove 260kms today at 4.7L per 100km without driving like an idiot, that in theory is about the cutoff, so car engines will need to shrink.

 

 

In context though, they are also rolling out non ICE vehicles as well.





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WyleECoyoteNZ
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  #2644240 29-Jan-2021 20:29
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TwoSeven:

 

Not sure what the fuss is about - most new vehicles already likely meet this standard anyhow. I believe is Europe now the standard is 95g CO2/Km for cars (I think it started this year?)

 

 

It is very low.

 

My current vehicle, a 2020 Kia Cerato 2.0 litre is rated at 170g CO2/Km

 

Interestingly, that's worse than most of my previous cars

 

2012 Holden Cruze 1.4 Turbo = 158g CO2/Km

 

2007 Honda Civic 1.8 VTEC = 165g CO2/Km

 

2006 Mitsubishi Lancer 2.4 MIVEC = 216g CO2/Km


Scott3

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  #2644255 29-Jan-2021 21:10
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Newship has the progressive target roll out table:

 


https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/01/climate-change-restrictions-on-car-imports-from-2022-as-government-announces-sweeping-changes-to-transport-sector.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

In 2013, for mazda selling Bt50 2x4 manual (206.48g co2/km) would attract less fines than selling a 2.5L mazda 3 hatchback. (153 g co2/km).

 

Again, I have a bad feeling the government has got this badly wrong regarding the split limit.


WyleECoyoteNZ
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  #2644257 29-Jan-2021 21:13
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MikeB4: People need to realise that our lives need to change a little so that those that come after us won’t live in a nightmare world. Making a couple of stops on a trip is nothing compare to what our mokopuna and beyond may endure.

 

Change a little, yes.

 

In my opinion, we\the Govt, need to take small steps in getting people to reduce emissions with vehicle choices.

 

A better way would be to encourage people towards hybrids and PHEV vehicles, then they can get a feel for electric running, then decide later on if a pure EV will work for them. A change to a pure EV is a big big change to there private transport.

 

To be honest, I had to replace my previous vehicle of a Cruze late last year, and a EV wasn't even a consideration, nor was a Hybrid or PHEV for that matter.

 

Only having 1 vehicle, that vehicle had to fill the role of family car, touring\traveling car, shopping car\everyday car.

 

And simply the range anxiety of a EV, just simply doesn't cut it to fill the above mentioned roles of the vehicle at the price point I brought at (mid $20K)

 

Also, not owning my own home and renting, means I don't have guaranteed home charging available to me. My current residence does have a garage where an EV could be charged, but if I were to move\have to move, there is no guarantee the next place would

 

On a road trip from Wellington to Tauranga over the Christmas break, we did make a couple of stops on the way up, (Bulls & Taupo), where we stopped at Bulls, I didn't see EV charging nearby, or where we stopped (Vivs Kitchen\25 minutes stopped) that doesn't mean it wasn't there, I just didn't see it.

 

And Taupo was, as you'd expect, crazy busy. Again, where I stopped (Taupo Cossie Club \ 45 minutes stopped), I didn't see EV charging there or nearby, again, that doesn't mean it wasn't there, I just didn't see it.

 

Yes, reduce emissions and every little bit counts, but take the public on a journey to EV's. As part of that journey, don't penalize those who can't immediately change


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