Should cyclists pay road taxes ?

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#2718278 4-Jun-2021 13:44

@sir1963 have you found a pot of gold under a rainbow for the government to use to pay for all this? because the management and day to day running of this will cost many many times more than it will bring in.

Handsomedan

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#2718290 4-Jun-2021 13:45

blackjack17:

Takes to long (my commute is short 4km but it takes between 10 and 15 minutes on a bike and takes between 8 and 40minutes by car)

This is so far from the norm, though. People living on the North Shore are going to be doing far larger distances - I live near Albany, a 17km trek one way to the city.

The distances from Albany, Glenfield, Browns Bay, Greenhithe etc are just too far for a cycle-to-work program to work well. Especially when you factor in wind, climbing the bridge towards the end of your commute in and then having to repeat that on the way home.

Summer time will be OK - the dozens of people that use the monumental waste of taxpayers money will enjoy it. As will a few families and day-trippers in the weekends. During the winter, which is notoriously cold, wet and windy, those few dozen will be simply a dozen or so MAMIL's that do it out of bloody-mindedness and sheer grit.

For your reference - the distances (one way) from main places that people will travel from are (Via SH 1):

Takapuna: 9.7km

Milford: 11.8km

Glenfield: 12.2km

Birkenhead: 9.1km

Mairangi Bay: 16.1km

Browns Bay: 19.8km

Long Bay: 23.6km

Albany: 18.5km

That's a lot of riding for a lot of people, assuming any of them get their bikes/scooters out and actually use the paths/bridge being built.

Utter waste of money, when there could be many other things this money could go to, like funding Trikafta, Education, Social Housing etc.

Make them pay? Who? Perhaps the only way to do that is to toll the cycleway to repay over 40 years...lets assume there's a thousand people use it a day (won't happen): $800m over 40 years is $20m per annum to collect in tolls.

$20m per annum split between 365k users is $109.60 per trip. Who's keen to ride the path now?

EDIT: reworked my mathemagic

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Jase2985

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#2718293 4-Jun-2021 13:52

i ride occasionally from Mangere Bridge to Devonport. 15km to the ferry terminal, then wait for the ferry, 15 mins on the ferry then another few mins to work. all up about 1 hour to 1 hour 15 mins to work and about 1 hour 10mins to 1h 30mins home. Traffic lights really kills the commute home. my drive is 28-35 in the morning and 35-45 in the afternoons.

The bonus is i get my daily exercise in on my commute.

Some days ill ride home via the norwestern and southwestern cycleways which adds another 50% to the journey. If they had a cyclepath other the bridge i would use it once a week. but at the proposed cost, no thanks.

I also dont believe there will be enough daily commuters using it, its too far from most of the north shore

morphyoss

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#2718294 4-Jun-2021 13:53

sir1963:

morphyoss:

Fair enough, but you are going to require all bicycles nationwide to get a number plate in case they have to cross the new Auckland bridge? Or do you need to have a nation wide network of cameras (at some expense) on all cycle infrastructure around the country? Not to mention the costs of Administrating such a system, renewals, managing change of ownership, maintenance, technology upgrades etc.

Re your swimming pool example, that's fine but it should also apply to all other transport projects too (such as Transmission Gully) which are largely funded from general taxation. I do generally agree with user pays so those that benefit from projects pay for it. Cycling though has other benefits, reduced costs to the healthcare system, reduced pollution etc. So this should all be factored in. Plus councils run pools, i dont think there should be 70 off different systems depending on where you are in the country.

Yes, Nation wide because cyclists use the infrastructure nation wide but currently contribute $0 extra in funding to maintain it. There are natural choke points (bridges, Traffic lights, dedicated cycle paths) where readers can be installed.There is even discussions about replacing fuel based taxes with GPS based systems for vehicles.

The costs of administration don't seem to be a reason not to register cars, motor bikes, etc. Lets just call those costs a strawman.

Have you heard of road taxes ? Motorists contribute about $2 BILLION.

Council run most streets, and costs for that are included in rates, and in some centres they also get 10c/l road taxes for additional funding.

People who use gyms also reduce the healthcare bill, but again they pay extra for that.

The point is, cyclists currently contribute $0 additional fees for the installation and maintenance of the infrastructure that benefits them. They rely on the taxation of the majority who do not use the infrastructure to pay for it.

You are cherry picking my posts but (conveniently) not also answering my other points. Do you think can fund our entire transport infrastructure on 2 billion per year - even if it is just for cars? That barely covers maintenance of existing roads let alone new costs + upgrades (not to mention Healthcare, ACC, pollution costs etc) . As previously mentioned, if you want a user pays system it will mean vehicle owners end up pay substantially more than they do today as well. I support general taxation having a part to play in paying for beneficial projects and a cycling bridge is no different to a project like Transmission Gully.

I think we can safely say agree to disagree on this one. 😉

sbiddle

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#2718295 4-Jun-2021 13:54

To answer the actual question - I would be happy to pay a fee as a cyclist to be able to ride from the Wellington CBD to the Hutt and not risk my life every day I do that. I would argue however that I shouldn't have to do that - if public transport can be heavily subsidised like it is why should I have to pay at all?

With traffic being as bad as it is now in Wellington it's a 45 - 50 min drive home for me most days, and I'd say over the course of a month probably 3 days where that drive takes close to 60 mins.

On average it'd take me around 55 mins to ride home, with that variance being from about 50 - 60 mins depending on things like wind and getting through traffic in the CBD. That time is on my mountain bike as I don't have a road bike at present so you'd easily take another 5+ mins off that time with on a road bike.

sir1963

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#2718296 4-Jun-2021 13:54

afe66: We live in a society where everyone contributes but not everyone benefits.

There are multiple examples of people contributing to things they don't benefit from.

In the general scheme of things cyclists are trivial cost.

I'm of the opinion that the anti cyclist movement is just a convenient target for angry motorists to vent at because they are frustrated annoyed travelers for multiple reasons.

So charge cyclists to use road, so less cyclists and more cars results in more traffic and more frustration.

Increase charges on cars that weight more than a small amount...oh no that will affect me i drive my ute and vent at cyclists.

Most cyclists are also rate players and contribute to roading as is....

As I said, rates pay for swimming pools, but the users still pay extra

Boat owners pay for Ramp feels

Trampers pay for DOC huts

Dog owners pay registration fees

There are plenty of examples where tax payers/rates payers pay addition fees for the facilities they use

Cycling is minority transport, but the significant costs are paid in the main by non users.

ALL motorists pay rates and taxes too, there is no exemption from paying more for roads (currently an additional $2 Billion each year, about $333 for every man woman and child in nz)

Diesel vehicles do pay more per weight of their vehicle, and heavier vehicles use more fuel anyway so do pay higher road taxes. Heavy trucks even pay separately for the trailer .

frankv

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#2718297 4-Jun-2021 13:56

morphyoss:

sir1963:

Number plates on bikes with plate readers. or RFID type tags. The technology is there.

Fair enough, but you are going to require all bicycles nationwide to get a number plate in case they have to cross the new Auckland bridge? Or do you need to have a nation wide network of cameras (at some expense) on all cycle infrastructure around the country? Not to mention the costs of Administrating such a system, renewals, managing change of ownership, maintenance, technology upgrades etc.

They had registration plates on bikes in Switzerland when I lived there many years ago. When you bought a bike, you also had to buy the registration plate.

There's no need for RFID or plate readers. Include an average bicycle's road user charges in the annual registration fee. Easy admin. But an average bicycle's road user charges, based on repairing damage done by bicycles, would so near to zero that it wouldn't be worth collecting.

If you want to charge cyclists a toll for crossing a bridge, put some coin-operated turnstiles at each end. Low tech, low cost. If you want to get fancy, have a BT scanner at each end to operate the turnstiles... user's register their phone to be able to use this.

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sir1963

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#2718298 4-Jun-2021 13:58

Jase2985:

@sir1963 have you found a pot of gold under a rainbow for the government to use to pay for all this? because the management and day to day running of this will cost many many times more than it will bring in.

Based on automated congestion charging, toll collection etc used overseas, I doubt there would be significant costs.

One could argue there are significant costs for dog registration, but we have it.

sir1963

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#2718303 4-Jun-2021 14:05

sbiddle:

To answer the actual question - I would be happy to pay a fee as a cyclist to be able to ride from the Wellington CBD to the Hutt and not risk my life every day I do that. I would argue however that I shouldn't have to do that - if public transport can be heavily subsidised like it is why should I have to pay at all?

With traffic being as bad as it is now in Wellington it's a 45 - 50 min drive home for me most days, and I'd say over the course of a month probably 3 days where that drive takes close to 60 mins.

On average it'd take me around 55 mins to ride home, with that variance being from about 50 - 60 mins depending on things like wind and getting through traffic in the CBD. That time is on my mountain bike as I don't have a road bike at present so you'd easily take another 5+ mins off that time with on a road bike.

So, you are arguing that because bus users get some subsidy, cyclists should get 100% subsidy ?

How about cyclists getting the same level of subsidy that's bus users get percentage wise ?

morphyoss

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#2718305 4-Jun-2021 14:17

frankv:

They had registration plates on bikes in Switzerland when I lived there many years ago. When you bought a bike, you also had to buy the registration plate.

There's no need for RFID or plate readers. Include an average bicycle's road user charges in the annual registration fee. Easy admin. But an average bicycle's road user charges, based on repairing damage done by bicycles, would so near to zero that it wouldn't be worth collecting.

If you want to charge cyclists a toll for crossing a bridge, put some coin-operated turnstiles at each end. Low tech, low cost. If you want to get fancy, have a BT scanner at each end to operate the turnstiles... user's register their phone to be able to use this.

Thats quite interesting re Switzerland. I just had a look and it looks like it was canned after it cost far more to administer than revenue it brought in which is the crux of my argument as above. Its the same thing that has been found time and time again when governments have looked into it. Queensland looked into it 5ish years ago and found it to unviable.

I agree about the damage aspect too. The bigger the vehicle the more you should have to pay which is why i think petrol tax is a waste of time, even if it is efficient to implement. Not to mention factoring in healthcare and pollution costs. When all of that is taken into account a lot of cycling infrastructure has positive economic returns. The cycleways project in Christchurch for example has a reported BCR of 5, which is pretty impressive for a transport project.

wellygary

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#2718306 4-Jun-2021 14:20

sir1963:

Cycling is minority transport, but the significant costs are paid in the main by non users.

Radio NZ is a minority radio station and by definition is therefore paid for in the main by non-users

sir1963

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#2718310 4-Jun-2021 14:27

morphyoss:

[You are cherry picking my posts but (conveniently) not also answering my other points. Do you think can fund our entire transport infrastructure on 2 billion per year - even if it is just for cars? That barely covers maintenance of existing roads let alone new costs + upgrades (not to mention Healthcare, ACC, pollution costs etc) . As previously mentioned, if you want a user pays system it will mean vehicle owners end up pay substantially more than they do today as well. I support general taxation having a part to play in paying for beneficial projects and a cycling bridge is no different to a project like Transmission Gully.

I think we can safely say agree to disagree on this one. 😉

New Zealand Transport Agency (in Millions of dollars )

Revenue 2,958

expenses 2,858

Asset purchases 1,8841

Assets 50,993

from https://www.treasury.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2019-10/fsgnz-2019.pdf

Search for transport

From Google

ACC recorded a total of 38,371 active claims for cycling injuries during the current year. So we should ask how much ACC levies paid by cyclists too ?

tripp

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#2718311 4-Jun-2021 14:30

I think the first issue here is getting some kind of ID onto a bike, like a bike number plate.

To get a bike ID plate goto the nzta website, pay a small fee, supply some info, get a plate. Or better yet some NFC kind of tag. Give cops a scanner / app on their smart phones to get the ID of bike and who owns it.

Then you could do something like the following:

18 or over, pay a fee (via cameras / NFC gateway on bike ways etc). Not a lot of money, maybe 50 cents each way. But only on bike ways that are designed for bikes.

sir1963

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#2718315 4-Jun-2021 14:42

wellygary:

sir1963:

Cycling is minority transport, but the significant costs are paid in the main by non users.

Radio NZ is a minority radio station and by definition is therefore paid for in the main by non-users

yep, to the tune of 47 Million a year, which used to be paid from TV licences before they were scrapped and it built into general taxation and a fund from NZ on Air is used for them and other programming.

But from Christchurch https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/124611551/building-101km-of-cycleways-across-christchurch-to-cost-301m

The cost of building 13 cycleways across Christchurch has ballooned to $301 million – close to $3m per kilometre.

100% of that money is coming from Rates/Taxes and there is $0 additional funding from cyclists.

sir1963

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#2718317 4-Jun-2021 14:46

tripp:

I think the first issue here is getting some kind of ID onto a bike, like a bike number plate.

To get a bike ID plate goto the nzta website, pay a small fee, supply some info, get a plate. Or better yet some NFC kind of tag. Give cops a scanner / app on their smart phones to get the ID of bike and who owns it.

Then you could do something like the following:

18 or over, pay a fee (via cameras / NFC gateway on bike ways etc). Not a lot of money, maybe 50 cents each way. But only on bike ways that are designed for bikes.

Or simply make it for bikes with a wheel size over a certain size.

Children still have to pay for access to swimming pools

On a Bee bus card, only those under 5 travel for free, 5-15 year olds get a concession, but they still cost.

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