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timmmay
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  #2720344 7-Jun-2021 18:43
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shk292:

timmmay:


I tried the advice in the thread a couple of years back, didn't work. Couldn't be bothered, just paid it. Pack of wan**** Wilson, no point appealing to them in any way. Either go to DT or pay it IMHO.



How did it not work?  Did they take you to DT or did you just cave in and pay anyway?



Couldn't be bothered so just paid it.

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Grumpy
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  #2720367 7-Jun-2021 21:08
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Just reading the thread makes me angry at Wilsons all over again,,,,

 

A few years ago I made a personal crusade of Wilson parking, my mission was to cost them Sooo much more than they cost me (I was a Student at the time so my time was cheap).

 

Long story short my F-You to Wilsons was a lot of fun, but they don't get personal so in the end it was just my satisfaction,,,,

 

First step:

 

UNDER NO circumstances ignore it - advise them (in writing) that you deny liability, or dispute the amount of damages, or both.

 

Next: you don't take them to the Disputes tribunal, they are the ones that want the money, make them initiate proceedings.

 

Volunteer ZERO information to Wilsons (this is just ammunition for them).

 

If they lodge it with debt collection politely, but firmly, tell the debt collection agency that this is a disputed Invoice (always use the word invoice, it is NOT a ticket).

 

You have no liability to pay unless (and until) a court order you to, and that if they take any action  to defame you in any way (credit rating) you will prosecute then. Give them a copy of the letter to Wilsons disputing the invoice

 

 

 

Ask Wilsons who was in charge of the vehicle at the time, a car cannot get a ticket, only the operator/driver (they will say that you are the owner, so you are liable, don't fall for it).

 

Tell them that as you were not the driver and that you deny liability and are comfortable that you can 'robustly defend' any claim in a relevent NZ court (then nominate the Disputes Tribunal).

 

All you are trying to prove is that it was not you, you don't have to prove who WAS the driver, just that you were not (but the courts do not like this approach so be careful).

 

If they say that you have to tell them who was the driver ask them where they law says you are required to (hint: the law doesn't say that).

 

End of the day make it clear that you are going to make it difficult to collect any money, and do not get frightened.

 

Wilsons are very good at what they do, they will not be put off by you, but they are interested in making money if it costs them more to collect than it is worth they will let it go (most of the time).

 

Also: research "Calderbank Offer" online - worth the read

 

Good luck.


Lizard1977

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  #2720641 8-Jun-2021 11:14
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Thanks for all the responses.  Some useful advice there.  I've started formulating a third letter back and will take on board the suggestion that PESNZ/Wilson need to initiate the DT process rather than me, and that I consider it a disputed invoice until such time as they initiate proceedings through the DT or drop it altogether.

 

I've revoked access via the Waka Kotahi website for my car rego, and I'm not parking in their carpark - at least until this matter is resolved.  Their parking areas are substantially cheaper than other local alternatives, so over the course of a year the savings do add up.  But I feel on principle I'd rather pay the higher price just as an F U to Wilson's for the way they do business.




nate
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  #2720655 8-Jun-2021 11:31
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Lizard1977:

 

But I feel on principle I'd rather pay the higher price just as an F U to Wilson's for the way they do business.

 

 

Up to you, but I still park in the places that I've disputed their tickets :)


pristle
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  #2725072 10-Jun-2021 23:43
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I went through the exercise some years ago. I took Tournament to the DT on principle. I tried to make things right on the day when I was 7 minutes late in returning to my car, but a 'breach notice' was sent by mail weeks later.

 

It ended in a draw so to speak. I paid them the originally proffered $4 I believe I owed them and bore the cost of the filing fee. They paid for two reps to sit and wait an entire morning.

 

 

 

In short:

 

All in all, if you believe you're in the right:
Prep extremely well. Write precisely what your case stand point is. Give it to your mother, your wife, your girlfriend (or all three) to read, and let them ask questions of you about, then modify your written work based on their attack. Take a better explanation of 'liquidated damages' with you (make sure those aforementioned women in your life understand it).

 

Just paying it and moving on, while on face value seems simpler, it's what these companies expect. Also it's akin to perjuring yourself, you're admitting guilt to something you're not guilty of.

 


And lastly, when you see the opposing rep and adjudicator are female, tread water carefully. One will understand the technicalities and the other will sympathize with her.....just saying.....


Lizard1977

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  #2725116 11-Jun-2021 09:04
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I sent off the letter the other day.  I made it abundantly clear that I disputed the amount that they are claiming, and that if they wanted to resolve said dispute then they should file a claim with the DT.  I also stated that I would treat the matter as closed until I received notification from the DT, and that I would pay nothing further unless and until ordered to do so by the DT.

 

One thing I am curious about - can a person that files a claim with the DT claim "costs" from the other party?  For instance, if they do lodge a claim with the DT and pay the $45 filing fee, and assuming they won can they claim the cost of the filing fee on top of the amount they are seeking?  If not, then it really isn't worth their while going to the DT - if they win, then the net return will be a measly $13.50.  But if they can claim the filing costs, then if they lose it costs them $45 + the time of any staff they send along, but if they win then it costs them staff time but get back the filing fee + the money they are claiming from me.  Still probably not really worth it, especially if they have to send someone from Auckland down here, but it does change the calculus somewhat.

 

Will wait and see what they decide to do.  I won't be surprised if they push ahead with the DT, as they seem to be especially belligerent about it for some stupid reason.


SirHumphreyAppleby
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  #2725120 11-Jun-2021 09:11
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Lizard1977:

 

One thing I am curious about - can a person that files a claim with the DT claim "costs" from the other party? 

 

 

According to https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-6-the-disputes-tribunal/making-a-claim/, the fee cannot be claimed. "The filing fee cannot be claimed back from the respondent."




Lizard1977

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  #2725122 11-Jun-2021 09:16
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SirHumphreyAppleby:

 

Lizard1977:

 

One thing I am curious about - can a person that files a claim with the DT claim "costs" from the other party? 

 

 

According to https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-6-the-disputes-tribunal/making-a-claim/, the fee cannot be claimed. "The filing fee cannot be claimed back from the respondent."

 

 

Well that's encouraging.  If they can't claim the filing fee, then it really does seem unlikely they will waste that amount of time and money for a net $13.50 benefit.  And I presume that they can't just ignore my "dispute" and send it off for debt collection.

 

 


frankv
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  #2725197 11-Jun-2021 11:09
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Lizard1977:

 

And I presume that they can't just ignore my "dispute" and send it off for debt collection.

 

 

Why not? There's no requirement to go to a DT before attempting other ways of recovering their claimed debt. They can, for example, apply to the District Court for an order against you. And that can include the costs of filing, which will be substantially more than $45. IANAL.

 

 


Lizard1977

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  #2725206 11-Jun-2021 11:17
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frankv:

 

Lizard1977:

 

And I presume that they can't just ignore my "dispute" and send it off for debt collection.

 

 

Why not? There's no requirement to go to a DT before attempting other ways of recovering their claimed debt. They can, for example, apply to the District Court for an order against you. And that can include the costs of filing, which will be substantially more than $45. IANAL.

 

 

Sorry, I should have been clearer.  My understanding is they can't ignore the fact that I have disputed the amount they are claiming, and simply send it off to a debt collection agency.  Presumably they can apply to the District Court as you state to have a ruling made, but that is similar to going to the Disputes Tribunal, and I would imagine the DC would suggest they try the DT first for such a small amount.  And the higher cost of filing wouldn't make sense.

 

What I was trying to clarify, is that because I have formally disputed the amount they are claiming they can't just set Baycorp on me.  Or at the very least, if Baycorp do try and recover the money, I can refer (in writing) to my dispute and defer any collection of the amount until they have resolved the dispute.  Or have I misunderstood things?

 

 


Dratsab
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  #2725220 11-Jun-2021 11:42
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They're not supposed to send disputed amounts to a debt collector but that won't necessarily stop them. If you receive a phone call from a debt collector, simply advise them the amount has been disputed in writing on {whatever the date was} and they will pass the matter back to Wilson parking.


pristle
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  #2725248 11-Jun-2021 12:34
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SirHumphreyAppleby:

 

Lizard1977:

 

One thing I am curious about - can a person that files a claim with the DT claim "costs" from the other party? 

 

 

According to https://communitylaw.org.nz/community-law-manual/chapter-6-the-disputes-tribunal/making-a-claim/, the fee cannot be claimed. "The filing fee cannot be claimed back from the respondent."

 

 

 

 

Which I think is precisely why they'd rather hand it over to collections, rather than spend money they cannot claw back.

 

 

 

In my case, I learnt in my digging, the person running the collection agency had family links to someone high up in Tournament.


Lizard1977

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  #2725278 11-Jun-2021 13:49
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Dratsab:

 

They're not supposed to send disputed amounts to a debt collector but that won't necessarily stop them. If you receive a phone call from a debt collector, simply advise them the amount has been disputed in writing on {whatever the date was} and they will pass the matter back to Wilson parking.

 

 

That's exactly what I intend to do if it comes to that.


networkn
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  #2729560 16-Jun-2021 11:24
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So the original defence of 'show me liquidated damages' no longer applies?

 

 


Lizard1977

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  #2729564 16-Jun-2021 11:29
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networkn:

 

So the original defence of 'show me liquidated damages' no longer applies?

 

 

This was what the "breach notice" wrote:

 

"As we have previously explained, The breach notice fee is the cost of enforcing the car park's terms and conditions of parking. This fee is payable under the contract and is not a penalty, a fine, nor a claim for liquidated damages."

 

So they aren't claiming for liquidated damages, presumably because they can't demonstrate that.  If it comes before the DT, one of the points I will argue is for them to demonstrate how the charge relates to the cost of enforcing the car park, when 100% compliance would mean that they are losing money to pay for enforcement.  Logically, the costs of enforcement must be built into their overall operating model.  The standard parking charges pay for their operation, which includes enforcement as that is central to their operation.


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