Clean car package

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#2729158 15-Jun-2021 15:40

Delorean:

Climate change is one of the most significant challenges facing the world today.

However, solving the climate issue isn’t as simple as launching a fleet of electric or hybrid-based vehicles. Particularly when two-thirds of the world’s electricity is still generated by fossil fuels.

We should be focussing on the bigger picture and not just providing rebates on these classes of vehicles

What does "the bigger picture" actually mean?

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frankv

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#2729159 15-Jun-2021 15:41

tdgeek:

Technically I agree, but its revenue neutral, the service rendered to you is moving to a better and healthier world. Taxes are mainly used as income for Governments, this tax or fee or whatever isn't Government income, its a tool used to shepherd silly people to a better healthier lifestyle, somemthing that we cannot seem to do ourselves. Buggy/carrot/donkey is the short version

That all applies to any tax. Revenue neutral just means it's spent as fast as it comes in, which isn't very different from any other Government income. All the income that the Government gets from taxation is (in theory) spent on improving the wellbeing of its citizens. In this case, it's both a stick and a carrot. In my case, I'll be providing nutrition to plant life long before the government moves me to a better and healthier world. Not that I disapprove... taxes taken from previous generations provide me with a better and healthier world already.

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#2729162 15-Jun-2021 15:46

Scott3:

I find the debate over the the word used a bit stupid. Everybody knows that whatever word is used it is a cost that somebody buying a new v8 nissan patrol (for on road use) will need to pay. Bloggers are just trying to win political points over the "No new taxes" thing.

If the government had called it by its most accurate and honest description they would call it a tax. However they have deliberately avoided using that word because they can’t use it without breaking an election promise - no new taxes. It’s part of their spin tactics. If bloggers are saying that, they have a valid point.

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Obraik

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#2729163 15-Jun-2021 15:49

Squabbling over if it's called a tax or not is pointless drivel. Call it what you want and move on.

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Delorean

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#2729164 15-Jun-2021 15:49

Handle9:

Delorean:

Climate change is one of the most significant challenges facing the world today.

However, solving the climate issue isn’t as simple as launching a fleet of electric or hybrid-based vehicles. Particularly when two-thirds of the world’s electricity is still generated by fossil fuels.

We should be focussing on the bigger picture and not just providing rebates on these classes of vehicles

What does "the bigger picture" actually mean?

The bigger picture is referring to the actual problem. taxing higher emission cars is just like picking the lower hanging fruit - It isn't "solving" the problem. There is always going to be the need for the ICE until battery technology improves to the point we then can finally move on from fossil fuels, however we are still 10 years away from that technology to be mainstream.

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Obraik

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#2729167 15-Jun-2021 15:53

Delorean:

The bigger picture is referring to the actual problem. taxing higher emission cars is just like picking the lower hanging fruit - It isn't "solving" the problem. There is always going to be the need for the ICE until battery technology improves to the point we then can finally move on from fossil fuels, however we are still 10 years away from that technology to be mainstream.

Taxing higher emissions cars helps fund people move to an EV that can. Sure, the 1 in 10 person buying a brand new Ford Ranger who actually needs its ute features might not be able to find an EV equivalent before the end of the year, but they can help someone else reduce their emissions in their place.

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elpenguino

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#2729169 15-Jun-2021 15:56

Delorean:

The bigger picture is referring to the actual problem. taxing higher emission cars is just like picking the lower hanging fruit - It isn't "solving" the problem.

Lol, The government can't solve the actual problem because the electorate won't let them (cos democracy etc).

Look at the squeals when Nissan pathfinders might get a bit more expensive. Now imagine the government tries to ban dairy farming or something else with a heavy environmental impact?

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sen8or

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#2729171 15-Jun-2021 15:58

A political party not keeping to their election promises, [sarcasm] stop the press, we have a world first leading headline........[/sarcasm] (applies to red/blue/green or whatever the Government du jour is)

Its an excise tax, no different to what is applied to alcohol or tobacco, applied as a disincentive to curb an activity

Handle9

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#2729183 15-Jun-2021 16:03

Delorean:

Handle9:

What does "the bigger picture" actually mean?

The bigger picture is referring to the actual problem. taxing higher emission cars is just like picking the lower hanging fruit - It isn't "solving" the problem. There is always going to be the need for the ICE until battery technology improves to the point we then can finally move on from fossil fuels, however we are still 10 years away from that technology to be mainstream.

So nothing should be done for the next 10 years?

wellygary

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#2729232 15-Jun-2021 16:15

Obraik:

Taxing higher emissions cars helps fund people move to an EV that can. Sure, the 1 in 10 person buying a brand new Ford Ranger who actually needs its ute features might not be able to find an EV equivalent before the end of the year, but they can help someone else reduce their emissions in their place.

But the unanswered issue is that vehicle emissions are currently totally fungible as they are part of the ETS.

Reducing vehicle emissions simply allow other ETS emissions to get get a cheaper ride as it removes demand for a chunk of ETS credits. -The government should have also announced a reduction in ETS credits, that will match the take up of the scheme...

Its claimed the scheme will "remove up to 9.2 million tonnes" of emissions, I'm guessing that's over some long time period (20 years or so?) as NZ's total gross emissions are around 80 million tonnes, and to remove over 10% of NZ's emissions in one single policy would be amazing....

Obraik

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#2729236 15-Jun-2021 16:27

wellygary:

But the unanswered issue is that vehicle emissions are currently totally fungible as they are part of the ETS.

Reducing vehicle emissions simply allow other ETS emissions to get get a cheaper ride as it removes demand for a chunk of ETS credits. -The government should have also announced a reduction in ETS credits, that will match the take up of the scheme...

Its claimed the scheme will "remove up to 9.2 million tonnes" of emissions, I'm guessing that's over some long time period (20 years or so?) as NZ's total gross emissions are around 80 million tonnes, and to remove over 10% of NZ's emissions in one single policy would be amazing....

I don't think the full details of the feebate scheme have been revealed yet. I'm assuming more details will come out later in the year as they work to make it law for Jan 2022. You're right though, for every EV that is added ETS credits should be removed. Maybe that will be part of how they deal with RUC going forward, which is also meant to be revealed before the end of the year

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tdgeek

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#2729270 15-Jun-2021 18:14

Obraik:

Yes, you've reiterated why public transport isn't a quick fix to our transport emissions.

It actually is. You can easily get people off cars, you can't get many people into EV's this year or next year or the year after that. But off course EV's are cool so that will save the world be 2026. The fact is, by 2026, EV:ICE in NZ will not be largely different from what it is now.

tdgeek

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#2729273 15-Jun-2021 18:17

Handle9:

What does "the bigger picture" actually mean?

To me, it means solar and wind farms everywhere. Then reduce/remove sources that are a problem, cough, cough, steaks and cows milk. Plant plant plant. Use wood use wood use wood. But thats all too boring probably. Better to buy a worn out Leaf and be green.

tdgeek

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#2729274 15-Jun-2021 18:21

frankv:

tdgeek:

Technically I agree, but its revenue neutral, the service rendered to you is moving to a better and healthier world. Taxes are mainly used as income for Governments, this tax or fee or whatever isn't Government income, its a tool used to shepherd silly people to a better healthier lifestyle, somemthing that we cannot seem to do ourselves. Buggy/carrot/donkey is the short version

That all applies to any tax. Revenue neutral just means it's spent as fast as it comes in, which isn't very different from any other Government income. All the income that the Government gets from taxation is (in theory) spent on improving the wellbeing of its citizens. In this case, it's both a stick and a carrot. In my case, I'll be providing nutrition to plant life long before the government moves me to a better and healthier world. Not that I disapprove... taxes taken from previous generations provide me with a better and healthier world already.

Cannot agree at any level. Tax is income = Consolidated Fund, that goes to all manner of spending. The EV scheme is an in-house scheme for one purpose. But your second point I agree. A Government wont do the right thing as the general populous doesn't want to do the right thing. If my bus fares go up 10 cents, or I have to walk another 50 metres, I'm out. Thats human nature. Unreal actually

tdgeek

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#2729276 15-Jun-2021 18:23

eracode:

Scott3:

I find the debate over the the word used a bit stupid. Everybody knows that whatever word is used it is a cost that somebody buying a new v8 nissan patrol (for on road use) will need to pay. Bloggers are just trying to win political points over the "No new taxes" thing.

If the government had called it by its most accurate and honest description they would call it a tax. However they have deliberately avoided using that word because they can’t use it without breaking an election promise - no new taxes. It’s part of their spin tactics. If bloggers are saying that, they have a valid point.

Is the wage subsidy a negative tax? is the increase to benefits a negative tax? Should the super low rego fees go back to normal as thats a tax?

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