Outlander PHEV - 65% battery health after 4 years

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › Outlander PHEV - 65% battery health after 4 years - reasonable?

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#2736612 30-Jun-2021 10:50

Thanks everyone, I’ve escalated this last week with Mitsubishi motors, I’ve checked in - they’re expecting to get back to me by COB tomorrow.

Will keep everyone in the loop on how this progresses.

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#2737438 1-Jul-2021 16:48

UPDATE: Mitsubishi Motors New Zealand Limited has provided the following update:

Thank you for contacting us, I apologise for the late response. As you were advised by our Customer Care team earlier today we were waiting for a response from our technical department in regards to your query. They have advised the following:

Firstly this vehicle was not offered with an 8 year 160,000km warranty, and the offer today is strictly for manufacturing defect and does not cover a degradation factor.
The pure EV market generally offer degradation warranties but for PHEV that is more limited to a few brands.

A lithium-ion battery has a natural degradation factor as a consequence of its chemistry and occurs in all li-ion batteries regardless of manufacturer. The rate of degradation is determined by vehicle use, charging cycles, charging type and temperature.
The battery report undertaken by the dealer shows this vehicle's battery to be in good condition. The cell voltages range from 4.089V to 4.092V with a range of just 0.003 volts.

The actual driving range or displayed range are dependent on multiple factors and do not demonstrate the battery state of health or state of charge.
Cold weather is one of the biggest factors affecting range along with heater use and air conditioner use.

There is no fault /defects with this battery and as such there is nothing to repair. The vehicle acceleration performance is not impacted by a change in degradation levels and a reduction in range over time is a natural characteristic.

Thank you once again for contacting us.

More thoughts when I get home.

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#2737509 1-Jul-2021 17:37

cokemaster: UPDATE: Mitsubishi Motors New Zealand Limited ...The battery report undertaken by the dealer shows this vehicle's battery to be in good condition. The cell voltages range from 4.089V to 4.092V with a range of just 0.003 volts.

That's interesting. That actually sounds pretty good if not exceptionally good.

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#2737513 1-Jul-2021 17:45

So is the computer wrong or is mitsubishi wrong? Or both correct?

Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.

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#2737520 1-Jul-2021 18:39

No idea. Makes me wonder if the dealer is aware of the various procedures available for BMU and if they have tried those yet.

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#2737521 1-Jul-2021 18:41

The battery started with 40ah of capacity and would report 48-52km of range. In previous years, I could do a commute from and to work and still have 1/4-1/5 of the battery spare.
I could drive to work with the heater on and just get home on a battery charge.

Now I have depleted the battery just as I get home, assuming no aircon/heating. If I use heating, I will be using the petrol engine on the return trip.

The Mitsubishi dealers test equipment reports 65.5% capacity or 26.2ah capacity current on the battery (not to be confused with remaining capacity).

They've conducted a 'auto capacity measurement' which apparently involves draining the battery and charging it, the best they could get upto was 68.75% - giving a range of 43km.

I suspect they also reset the battery management unit as the range figures have now dropped down to around 30km (without AC). I can barely get that range (more often than not, its significantly lesser) within Auckland - eg. 20km.

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#2737522 1-Jul-2021 18:47

so mitsubishi is just trying to deflect it?

Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.

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#2737524 1-Jul-2021 18:48

Yes - I fully intend to enforce my rights under the CGA and will keep the thread updated.

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#2737629 2-Jul-2021 01:00

cokemaster:

Yes - I fully intend to enforce my rights under the CGA and will keep the thread updated.

Will be interesting to see what happens, because I suspect we will see this sort of issue more and more, and how it is going to be handled. Have you tried contacting Consumer NZ? It is a very timely issue with the Clean Car stuff that has come in.

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#2737682 2-Jul-2021 06:32

cokemaster:

Yes - I fully intend to enforce my rights under the CGA and will keep the thread updated.

easy peezy argument

just say new car batteries have 8 year warranty

old car more expensive should have the same

$$$ profit

Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.

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#2737856 2-Jul-2021 11:53

Obviously the warranty route isn't going to work, onto the CGA...

"The pure EV market generally offer degradation warranties but for PHEV that is more limited to a few brands."

I'm surprised to see this comment. Degradation warranties are offered on the brand and model in question in multiple locations:

https://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4027

Will be hard for Mitsubishi NZ to argue that a 65% SOH battery is of acceptable quality in New Zealand when Mitsubishi Motors in other markets (UK, Norway, Netherlands, Finland) for a 2017 outlander PHEV gaurentee that the battery will remain over 70% SOH for 8 years / 160,000km...

gzt:
cokemaster: UPDATE: Mitsubishi Motors New Zealand Limited ...The battery report undertaken by the dealer shows this vehicle's battery to be in good condition. The cell voltages range from 4.089V to 4.092V with a range of just 0.003 volts.

That's interesting. That actually sounds pretty good if not exceptionally good.

It just means the pack is well balanced. (either because of the BMS doing a good job of balancing it), or because it is evenly degraded.

Should note that based on my leaf, at a very high state of charge the pack will normally be quite balanced (10 - 25 mV vairnce). A voltage of 4.09v indicates that the pack is at a very high (95%+ state of charge). I would expect that running the analysis at a low state of charge would tell a different picture. In leaf's due to the pack layout some cells get hotter than others and degrade faster, and this shows up at middle or low states of charge.

Regardless, Even if the cells are evenly degraded, this doesn't really have a material impact on OP, compared to just one cell causing the issues with the pack. The reality is that they purchased a car based on its ability to do xx km in electric mode. Despite being just four years old, the car's electric range has dramatically dropped.

"A lithium-ion battery has a natural degradation factor as a consequence of its chemistry and occurs in all li-ion batteries regardless of manufacturer. The rate of degradation is determined by vehicle use, charging cycles, charging type and temperature."

This is true, but omits that the Engineering design of the pack, inducing it's chemistry type is a major factor in the rate of degradation. I stand by my prior comment that a decent argument could be made that the vehicle is not of ".acceptable quality" Under the CGA.

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#2737867 2-Jul-2021 12:13

Quote "Will be hard for Mitsubishi NZ to argue that a 65% SOH battery is of acceptable quality in New Zealand when Mitsubishi Motors in other markets (UK, Norway, Netherlands, Finland) for a 2017 outlander PHEV gaurentee that the battery will remain over 70% SOH for 8 years / 160,000km...

The above markets have significantly more severe temperatures than Auckland. If they can deem that warranty acceptable for those countries climates,

A climate like Aucklands should offer significantly improved battery health

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#2737893 2-Jul-2021 13:11

To play devil's advocate, is there something they do differently in the later models to offer the longer warranty?

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#2737997 2-Jul-2021 15:51

No response from Mitsubishi New Zealand, they’ve gone radio silent.

I’ve sent a complaint to the Comm Comm regarding the matter.
Spoke to Consumer - they’re going to have someone look at the battery results but they’ve indicated that the Motor Vehicle Disputes Tribunal is the worse case venue for this although case will be against the dealer rather than Mitsubishi New Zealand. They are comfortable with this approach in relation to the CGA

The dealer is still escalating this to Mitsubishi and is aware of the ‘push back via CGA’. Apparently Mitsubishi’s battery warranty only covers factory defects/full failures. They internally have a degradation range which they don’t share with dealers regarding whether a battery should be considered faulty.

The cost of a new traction battery is $21K +GST or $26.5K inc GST fitted. Given depreciation, I estimate that the car is worth $28-30K tops so I cannot justify that.

The dealers service is going to give me a progress update on Monday. I will be raising this with the dealers management on Monday too.

Mitsubishi’s stance and locked down comms on this matter has poisoned the brand for me. There is a possibility that a rabbit may be pulled out of the hat but looking unlikely. Preference is still to get the degradation sorted (the size and range works for our lifestyle) but the more Mitsubishi drag their heels, the more attractive returning the car in its entirety looks.

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#2738003 2-Jul-2021 16:14

the battery that drives you 50km costs nearly 30k.

hmm ...

Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.

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