EVSE (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment) for Home Use

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#2873592 24-Feb-2022 07:41

Scott3:

But your board appears to be quite old, and not using a rail mount setup. Perhaps that breaker is a push in type, to replace an old push in fuse?

Electrician will need to advise. At some an update to a modern board is probiably a good decision, but of course that makes whatever install that triggers that very expensive.

Yes, it is from the 1980s (ahhh, simpler times). The original fuse mounts have been slowly replaced as required but some still have retrofitted CBs in them.

Since I am seriously considering incorporating PV and battery into the house system (as per my OP) a major distribution board upgrade is going to need to happen anyway. So I expect thousands will need to be spent on the distribution board to achieve present day aims as well as future proofing a little.

Edit: Just a thought (bearing in mind I’m not an electrician) if there is a Type B RCD in the EVSE, does the distribution board need an RCD, or just a CB? I had in my mind that any additions to the distribution board need to be an RCD now.

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cthombor

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#2873752 24-Feb-2022 11:11

Obraik:

Scott3:

Avoid 15A sockets for EV charging.

They were the go to in the early days of EV's in NZ. Sadly, despite being rated for 15A continuous, they seem to do poorly in this duty in the real world. Plenty of photos of scorched plugs / Sockets around.

Hence why the use of the 16A blue IEC 60309-2 (Caravan) plugs became the go to plug to provide slightly more power than a standard domestic socket.

These days the work safe guidelines only allow listed plug types. Note that the AS/NZS 3112 plug is restricted to just the 10A rating (standard domestic plug).
https://www.worksafe.govt.nz/dmsdocument/5169-electric-vehicle-charging-safety-guidelines-2nd-edition

Well TIL. Tesla provides a 15A connector for their EVSE with the car so does this mean that they're actually breaking the Worksafe guidelines and should instead be providing a 16A caravan socket instead?

Hmm... maybe Tesla's engineers hadn't read the WorkSafe guidelines as carefully as did Scott3, or weren't aware of them?

According to https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/pdfs/charging_docs/gen_2_umc/Gen2_Mobile_Connector_en_NZ.pdf, the "Gen 2 Mobile Connector" Tesla is supplying in NZ may have: an adapter with a 3112 15A plug which limits the EVSE current to 12A, an adapter with a 3112 10A plug which limits the EVSE current to 8A, and/or an adapter with an IEC 60309 ("blue caravan") plug which limits the EVSE current to 16A.

Some or all of these adapters must have a thermosensor on the plug, because the EVSE has a well-defined error-mode (green lights streaming, red light with 4 flashes) for the plug-overheating condition.

Although I'm pretty cautious about electrical safety, I'd be fine with allowing a friend to charge their Tesla using the 3112 15A plug in my garage. Even if it looks like the adapter has a thermosensor on its plug, I'd be checking the plug-temp after the first 15 minutes, after an hour, and then every three hours thereafter -- which is the same safety-drill I use whenever I'm using someone else's 3112 10A socket to charge my EV at 8A.

The 16A charge-rate that's available on the "blue" plug adapter would be an attractive option for Tesla owners, I'd imagine... although I do find myself wondering about the fraction of the 16A sockets at NZ's caravan parks which would safely supply power for a multi-hour charge at this amperage.

If you're in the lucky position of having an employer who has supplied you with a Tesla, then you might point this employer at the "Employer-Owned EVs" section of the WorkSafe guidelines, which "strongly discourage allowing a staff member with an employer owned vehicle to charge the vehicle at home using Mode 2 charging with an in-cable control and protection device (IC-CPD)... a dedicated charging station should be installed at home for charging the vehicle."

cthombor

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#2873775 24-Feb-2022 11:20

Scott3:

Obraik:

Yeah if you're going to camp sites then for sure, it's a good purchase. But if you're getting a caravan plug installed at home just to charge your Tesla it's not really worth it now with the new version - just get a 15A socket installed and then it can be used for the car or any other appliance

Avoid 15A sockets for EV charging.

... These days the work safe guidelines only allow listed plug types. Note that the AS/NZS 3112 plug is restricted to just the 10A rating (standard domestic plug).

https://www.worksafe.govt.nz/dmsdocument/5169-electric-vehicle-charging-safety-guidelines-2nd-edition

Scott3 I think you missed the section on "Electric vehicle socket-outlets". It's fine to use any 3112 socket rated 20A or lower.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#2874342 24-Feb-2022 21:23

I think that implies that a sparky can install a 15/20A 3112 outlet for EV charging, but a manufacturer should not supply EVSE intended to use those sockets. Installation of the sockets would only be for pre-existing EVSE purchased before the guidelines changed.

cthombor

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#2874433 24-Feb-2022 23:05

SomeoneSomewhere:

I think that implies that a sparky can install a 15/20A 3112 outlet for EV charging, but a manufacturer should not supply EVSE intended to use those sockets. Installation of the sockets would only be for pre-existing EVSE purchased before the guidelines changed.

I don't see any implication in the WorkSafe guidelines that it'd be unsafe to plug an EVSE that's fitted with a 10A 3112 plug into a 15A 3112 socket; nor do I see any implication that an electrician should decline to install a 15A 3112 socket upon request by a client who may have some appliance other than an IC-CPD with a 15A 3112 plug.

Furthermore, it's my understanding that WorkSafe guidelines are *not* mandatory -- until such time (if ever) that they're picked up by SNZ. That said, registered electricians are wary of supplying anything that's clearly out of conformance with WorkSafe guidelines. As it happens, SNZ has recently issued a PAS to clarify the obligations of an electrician when supplying EVSE. Here's the relevant snippet from https://www.standards.govt.nz/shop/snz-pas-60112021/

So... I think the state of play is that mode-2 charging is heavily deprecated in the workplace (by WorkSafe); and that it'd be fine for Tesla to supply an IC-CPD that'll charge at 15A that's fitted with a 15A 3112 plug *if* the plug has a temperature sensor which will reliably cause the IC-CPD to stop charging if the plug becomes too hot.

And... even without recent guidelines and regulations regarding EVSEs, I'd say it'd clearly be unsafe practice to supply a device with a 15A 3112 socket and one (or more!) 10A 3112 plugs. But that just me "saying" this... and someone somewhere in NZ (but I'm sure it wasn't you) had apparently thought otherwise, supplying a truly scary-looking device which provoked WorkSafe to go to the trouble of gazetting a notice. It'd be funny, if it weren't so scary the lengths some unscrupulous folks will go to make a few bucks.

SomeoneSomewhere

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#2875200 26-Feb-2022 09:44

I think you misunderstood me - I was saying that the manufacturers should not be producing IC-CPDs with 15A 3112 plugs intended for the 15A 3112 sockets. There's nothing wrong with using a 10A 3112 IC-CPD in a 15A 3112 socket.

Sparkies can install whatever compliant socket for whatever purpose. However, if they are complying with the guidelines, then if they know that the socket is intended for EV charging then they need to use type B RCDs, only the sockets listed in the document and so on.

This is not too dissimilar from other situations where what you're intended to use the socket for changes the rules. For example, your stove needs a switch above-bench so that you can shut it off, even if it just plugs into a normal switched socket under the bench. If you wanted to use say a welder, a dishwasher, or any other high-power load that blocks access to that socket - there would be no need for the switch. But there is with a stove.

cthombor

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#2875294 26-Feb-2022 14:21

SomeoneSomewhere: ... Sparkies can install whatever compliant socket for whatever purpose. However, if they are complying with the guidelines, then if they know that the socket is intended for EV charging then they need to use type B RCDs, only the sockets listed in the document and so on. This is not too dissimilar from other situations where what you're intended to use the socket for changes the rules. ...

As you have pointed out: the 2019 WorkSafe guidelines do not include the 15A 3112 plug as an option.

The 2021 SNZ PAS regulations do include the 15A 3112 plug as an option -- with the (I think rather obviously-appropriate) provisos that the IC-CPD be limited to 12A unless there's a temp-sensor on its plug in which case it can run at the full rated 15A. It's my understanding that the testing regime for certifying a 15A 3112 plug includes a thermal test, where a current of somewhat more than 15A (I don't recall offhand) is passed through the plug until its temperature stabilises below some threshold value (which I don't recall offhand) or until it overheats (in which case it isn't certified). Of course: wear and corrosion will degrade the thermal performance of a 15A 3112 plug, which is why the 12A limit is important for a safety margin.

I'd hope that any registered electrician is conversant with all of the information (notably including earthing, and the safety risk of an open or high-resistance neutral) that's in the 2021 SNZ PAS, but which is not mentioned in the 2019 WorkSafe guidelines.

The cautious electrician may well agree with you about (what you seem to believe to be) the inappropriateness of using a 15A 3112 plug to supply a continuous 12A load, or about the importance of *not* using a socket that's explicitly allowed in 2021 SNZ PAS because the socket wasn't explicitly allowed in the 2019 WorkSafe guidelines.

Any employer (I hope!) would take note of the deprecations in the WorkSafe guidelines regarding *any* mode-2 EVSE.

And... the cautious and well-informed homeowner would *never* rely solely on a thermosensor, in *either* a 15A or a 16A plug, to assure safety in a circuit that's drawing 15A for many hours. I'm a belt-and-suspenders sort of guy!

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Scott3

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#2875521 26-Feb-2022 20:44

Regarding Tesla supplying a 15A plug. I can't comment on the technical size (perhaps it is set up to draw quite far below 15A, or has high quality pin temperature monitoring), but I think another poster has hit the nail on the head so to speak. The document I am refering to are worksafe guidelines, not a law.

Regarding that banned 1x15A socket to 2x10A plug's, I have a pic for your viewing pleasure.

cthombor:

Scott3 I think you missed the section on "Electric vehicle socket-outlets". It's fine to use any 3112 socket rated 20A or lower.

Sorry. When I said 15A socket should be avoided, I ment 15A plug & 15A socket pairings.

No issue plugging a 10A plug (drawing 8A if no thermal monitoring, or 10A with) into a 15A socket.

But from those scorched plug / socket images I posted above, the 15A sockets clearly do poorly when loaded with a JDM nissan leaf EVSE. (about 14A, assuming one hasn't spoofed the thermal monitoring with a resistor to reduce the draw).

cthombor

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#2875534 26-Feb-2022 21:20

Scott3:

Regarding Tesla supplying a 15A plug. I can't comment on the technical size (perhaps it is set up to draw quite far below 15A, or has high quality pin temperature monitoring), but I think another poster has hit the nail on the head so to speak. The document I am refering to are worksafe guidelines, not a law.

Regarding that banned 1x15A socket to 2x10A plug's, I have a pic for your viewing pleasure.

cthombor:

Scott3 I think you missed the section on "Electric vehicle socket-outlets". It's fine to use any 3112 socket rated 20A or lower.

Sorry. When I said 15A socket should be avoided, I ment 15A plug & 15A socket pairings.

No issue plugging a 10A plug (drawing 8A if no thermal monitoring, or 10A with) into a 15A socket.

But from those scorched plug / socket images I posted above, the 15A sockets clearly do poorly when loaded with a JDM nissan leaf EVSE. (about 14A, assuming one hasn't spoofed the thermal monitoring with a resistor to reduce the draw).

That looks to me like a picture of what happens when a plug carries significantly more than its rated load. Whoever designed that scary bit of equipment had imagined that a 15A load would be (somehow!) evenly balanced across the two plugs, and *if* that ever happened then neither would carry more than 10A. Yeah right. Pull the other one.

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#2875583 27-Feb-2022 07:37

question - plugging my leaf 24kwh into the wall socket in this setup

leaf - OEM Audio cable - 30m 1.5mm2 extension - mitre10 RCD - wall socket

been doing that for half a year

is there any issue there?

cheers

Jase2985

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#2875585 27-Feb-2022 07:45

i would not be using an extension at all, let alone a 30m one. get an electrician to put a power point next to where you charge the car

RunningMan

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#2875628 27-Feb-2022 09:51

Batman:

leaf - OEM Audio cable - 30m 1.5mm2 extension - mitre10 RCD - wall socket

The big problem is that there can be no temperature monitoring at the wall socket. The EVSE will only be able to monitor the temp at the other end of that cable. Assuming that EVSE has temp monitoring, then it will have no idea if your wall socket starts having a meltdown. Additionally, that long cable could get very warm, especiallly if it is in a uniform coil somewhere.

SaltyNZ

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#2875637 27-Feb-2022 10:33

Batman:

question - plugging my leaf 24kwh into the wall socket in this setup

leaf - OEM Audio cable - 30m 1.5mm2 extension - mitre10 RCD - wall socket

been doing that for half a year

is there any issue there?

cheers

I used a (heavy duty) 10A extension cord for the best part of a year to charge our Leaf while the house was being renovated. The OEM Audio adaptors are smart - I wouldn't worry about it.

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Scott3

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#2875819 27-Feb-2022 17:08

Batman:

question - plugging my leaf 24kwh into the wall socket in this setup

leaf - OEM Audio cable - 30m 1.5mm2 extension - mitre10 RCD - wall socket

been doing that for half a year

is there any issue there?

cheers

It's bad practice.

Best practice is to use a fixed EVSE installed by an electrician as your main means of charging. Means the upstream wiring is checked by an electrician. likely means a dedicated circuit, so no risk of tripped breakers from other loads being run at the same time. Hard-wiring reduces the risk of the likes of a weak earth connection. And everything downstream of the EVSE typically gets far more protection than a basic extension cord. Normal RCD protection, DC leakage protection, and the power only gets turned on once the car has completed it's handshake, earth continuity checked etc.

But of course many people, including myself have used a portable cable plugged to a wall outlet for an extended period. Works fine, but more area's of risk. (Domestic plug connection, cable between wall and brick has reduced protection, shared circuit etc).

Your config, does add even more risk:

Adding what sounds like two additional plug/socket pairs triples the odds of an plug/socket pairing issue.
30m of cord, plus the plug parings will add up to fairly substantial voltage drop. - An online calculator showed a 30m run of 1.5mm^2 cable results in a 3.454% / 7.92V voltage drop. Add this to the drop from the RCD, plug / socket pairings, OEM audio evse etc, and we could well see a fairly low voltage at the car, but I don't think they are super sensitive to low voltage.
30m of extension cord increases the odds of something bad happening to it. Stored in a coil (extra heat generation), passed under something thermally insulation (carpet, matt, pile of leaves etc), mechanical damage.
Risk of indoor rated components used outside.

The area around the EVSE would be my highest concern. Two plug connections (if it is a brick type), plus the RCD itself all in close proximity, generating heat...

If it is your only option, risks can be somewhat mitigated, by the likes of making sure the cord is fully uncoiled, not under anything, not going to be mechanically damaged, and checking that the likes of plug pins aren't getting excessively warm. Everything is rated to handle 10A contentiously, so if everything is in good condition, 8A is well below the rating.

Of course ideally you would want to get a sparky to install a fixed EVSE near your parking space. They would likely run fatter cable than the 1.5mm to it, reducing voltage drop.

RunningMan:

The big problem is that there can be no temperature monitoring at the wall socket. The EVSE will only be able to monitor the temp at the other end of that cable. Assuming that EVSE has temp monitoring, then it will have no idea if your wall socket starts having a meltdown. Additionally, that long cable could get very warm, especiallly if it is in a uniform coil somewhere.

Quite probable the OEM audio EVSE doesn't have plug temperature monitoring, and as such is setup to signal an 8A max draw to the car (as recommended in the work-safe guidelines). And as such the evse would not detect an overheating socket even if plugged directly to it.

That said, it is only running at 80% of the continuous rating, so an overheating plug is unlikely.

I have been charging my leaf for over a year with an 8A evse (without thermal monitoring) plugged directly into a domestic socket.

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#2875827 27-Feb-2022 18:01

ok thanks oops

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