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RUKI
1342 posts

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  #2900607 12-Apr-2022 18:28
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@mattwnz re: "batteries become cheaper".
Myth.
Do not be fooled by claimes about $/kWh going down mainly associated with efforts to reduce cost of production.
That only means increase of ROI.

Another consideration: manufacturers aim at:
- making lifespan of the EV battery equal to common in the auto industry expected lifespan of the car to be 10 years
- incentivize new car purchase by introducing new models every 4 years and not making batteries compatible with the next "release", at the same time not making/offering replacement batteries (only small amount for accidental warranty replacement).

Exception are Toyota hybrids with NP2 standard NiMH battery modules compatible with various Toyota/Lexus/Mazda hybrids models and backward compatible with models since 2001. That is 20 years of stability and albeit estimated lifespan being 10 years, multiple cases suggest lifespan being 200.000-300.000kms. Those batteries are always available from Toyota globally.





Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair 

 

 


gzt

gzt
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  #2900608 12-Apr-2022 18:34
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Personally I'd be more concerned about buying a second hand Subaru than a second hand EV.

RUKI
1342 posts

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  #2900611 12-Apr-2022 18:46
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@BenTM
1) This is how you can reply. No need to quote all post.
2) I do not care about any stats from "Stuff". If one wannabe Geek - simle script will extract data from the official stats raw data, based on whatever criteria you like. There are also scripts for Trademe stats..
3) My answer to your initial question re: "second hand EV" - I have numerous observations: people of all ages, gender and income own second hand EVs in NZ and enjoy them. Fun to drive. Less hassle to do the maintenance.




Toyota / Lexus Hybrid and EV Battery Expert Battery Test & Repair 

 

 




danielparker
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  #2900627 12-Apr-2022 19:50
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gzt: Personally I'd be more concerned about buying a second hand Subaru than a second hand EV.

 

Really? I own a few second hand Subarus and have never had any issues..

 

I am about to buy a new PHEV Mitsubishi Outlander.. Mitsubishi will give an 8 year battery warranty *for the 1st owner*. Yes, I know about the CGA etc, but I find it interesting that they will only warrant it for the first owner.. In reality it shouldn't matter how many owners a car has had.. 8 Years / 160000Km are both defined amounts. Hit either one and warranty is over. Prior to that its still valid.

 

Its this sort of wording by the manufacturers that is bad for the second hand market.. but they don't want to sell second hand cars.

 

Daniel


everettpsycho
388 posts

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  #2900628 12-Apr-2022 19:50
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We got a second hand leaf from Japan at the end of last year and honestly haven't looked back. The ICE rarely gets a look in now unless we need two cars.

The main thing is to do your homework on the batteries and work out what you actually need in a car not what you want or are juat used to having. Sounds ridiculous but we worked out we very rarely need to use a second car and even rarer go on long trips in the car, 99% of the time an ev would cover our journeys and then some. We elected to spend more on a 30kW leaf mainly because there's days we need to go 25km to town and back twice and that 150km range gives us the overhead to do that with plenty to spare for when the range drops further or particularly nasty conditions.

There has been announcements that evs enhanced in Christchurch is working on a better battery for older leafs and considering the minimal wear and tear on the main components that battery swap, whilst it won't be cheap, will reinvigorate your car, I mean they feel like new Cara to drive even second hand with good mileage on them. Fully loaded have done a video on Robert Llewellyn having his original leaf upgraded to a 40kW pack and he's claiming it feels like a brand new car with the only issue of range now gone.

RobDickinson
1408 posts

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  #2900631 12-Apr-2022 20:00
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RUKI: 
In any EV case you are looking at disposable car with faster than ICE depreciation rate.

 

 

 

And other fairy stories


insane
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  #2900649 12-Apr-2022 20:21
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RobDickinson:

RUKI: 
In any EV case you are looking at disposable car with faster than ICE depreciation rate.


 


And other fairy stories



Probably not in year 0-8, but after that it's hard to judge. Tesla's might have a different depreciation curve, but you can see from the secondhand leaf market he has a point.



Also you mentioned earlier that ICE cars don't have such advanced monitoring. Bollocks, I have a vagcom for my VW and can pull any metric out under the sun, including all the engine position sensors, clutch bite points, fuel flow per injector. Then there's all the non engine/transmission sensors too.



I know an engine is the most complicated part in an ICE car, but the rest of the car ICE or EV has plenty of opportunity for failure and some require occasional maintenance. Cooling, braking, suspension, power steering, drive shafts/CVs, shocks, bearings, electrical, infotainment, airbags, safety sensors, cameras, elec windows and locks, weather seals, door hinges, they all need attention over time. So seeing suggestions that EVs are somehow so significantly easier to maintain irks me.



ANglEAUT
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  #2900653 12-Apr-2022 20:51
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insane: ... So seeing suggestions that EVs are somehow so significantly easier to maintain irks me.

 

Sorry, but there must be a reason why I only pay $70 for a service on my Leaf when others are spending $150 - $800 on a service.

 

I've done 120 000km in my 2015 24KW Leaf since early 2018. With my 25km round trip a day lately, I only have to charge every 3rd day.





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alasta
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  #2900654 12-Apr-2022 20:54
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When I cut the numbers I found that the depreciation rate of a combustion vehicle vs an electric vehicle is a significant factor in the financial viability. Would the depreciation be the same in $ terms, or would it be the same in % terms?

 

Unfortunately electric vehicles seem to be quite an emotive topic, so it's very difficult to find any objective evidence as to how the depreciation curves would compare over the next few years. 


ANglEAUT
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  #2900660 12-Apr-2022 20:57
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BenTM: ... If you looked into it and decided against it, why?

 

Before the 1TB mark, it was wise to always buy the biggest HDD you could afford. Same goes for batteries currently. I think it's worth it to stretch finances for the bigger battery

 

  • Better resale value
  • longer range decreases anxiety for the non-EV drivers
  • you are less likely to drain your battery as often; i.e more likely to stay in the optimum range of the battery, i.e. increasing battery life

 





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insane
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  #2900662 12-Apr-2022 21:04
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ANglEAUT:

insane: ... So seeing suggestions that EVs are somehow so significantly easier to maintain irks me.


Sorry, but there must be a reason why I only pay $70 for a service on my Leaf when others are spending $150 - $800 on a service.


I've done 120 000km in my 2015 24KW Leaf since early 2018. With my 25km round trip a day lately, I only have to charge every 3rd day.



Okay that is pretty good, costs me about $110 as I do it myself. Granted $280 at the dealer.

At some point you'll also need to replace wipers, tires, pads, bulbs, coolant / brake fluids etc too. Not taking into account any breakfix.

Out of interest, what do they do for that $70 and is that from a Nissan dealer?

mdav056
539 posts

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  #2900675 12-Apr-2022 21:43
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Yes I did.  A 2014 24kw Leaf with 82% SOH, 10 bars, from a completely non-recognized dealer (ie not an EV dealer) 6 months ago.  Absolutely great -- I get 120 or so kms from a charge (100%, slow, overnight on cheap electricity, usually once a week), and it is exactly right for zooming around Auckland -- a town car. Hardly needs any servicing.  Best buy I ever made.  Dog likes it too.





gml


MikeAqua
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  #2901779 13-Apr-2022 10:09
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As general rule I don't anything powered by an integral battery second hand.  The reason is, you just don't know how it's been treated. 

 

Also, I thrash my cars. I've never attempted to drive economically. E.g. if I come to a hill, I change down and push the pedal to the floor, rather than coast. I get through brakes and shocks but IC engines seem to lap up abuse and keep on ticking.   I imagine the battery in any EV I own would have a shortened life expectancy.

 

I guess at some stage in my life I'll have to buy an EV 😱.  But for now, I'll delay that until tech matures a bit more and solid state batteries enter the used EV market.





Mike


mdav056
539 posts

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  #2901784 13-Apr-2022 10:16
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MikeAqua:

 

As general rule I don't anything powered by an integral battery second hand.  The reason is, you just don't know how it's been treated. 

 

...

 

 

You can get an indication of how it has been treated from LeafSpy and similar -- see Nissan Leaf Users Group on facebook for futher info, and probably other car user groups.





gml


Batman
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  #2901792 13-Apr-2022 10:27
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MikeAqua:

 

Also, I thrash my cars. I've never attempted to drive economically. E.g. if I come to a hill, I change down and push the pedal to the floor, rather than coast. I get through brakes and shocks but IC engines seem to lap up abuse and keep on ticking.   I imagine the battery in any EV I own would have a shortened life expectancy.

 

 

i have no idea how flooring the accelerator destroys the battery. 

 

does playing games on your phone destroy the battery and only doing text messages protect the battery?

 

no. it's how you charge the battery that protects or destroys it.

 

i'd happily buy a secondhand EV off you but i won't buy an ICE off you.

 

yes i have 4 ICEs in my house :)

 

(but mostly drive a Leaf)





Involuntary autocorrect in operation on mobile device. Apologies in advance.


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