the future is here in Australia: EV vs ICE

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › the future is here in Australia: EV vs ICE

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5

5429 posts

Uber Geek

#3004566 2-Dec-2022 11:05

MikeAqua:

Yes, although nowhere near where I park my commute vehicle. The car that fits in the garage isn't the commuter. But I digress as that wasn't the question. The question was something like who really drives a 100km+ commute. I do. And my commute vehicle is also the vehicle I use for towing, which I would do two to three times per month.

I did recently try a neighbours leaf for what was supposed to be a month, while they were overseas I lasted about a week. Hated that car. I also had to relocate the boat to get the leaf near a garage window, which isn't a long term solution. Thats all to do with layout of our driveway and garage.

There are couple of EVs I really, really like the look (FG-150 lightning and Riviera) of but I imagine they are $200k plus, which is simply unaffordable. if I wasn't towing the Audi e-tron GT looks nice, but again, I'm dreaming on the dollar front.

The Leafs are borderline unusable until you get to around 2020, otherwise the touch screens are too fiddly for proper Android Auto/Apple Carplay.

They also still inexcusably have no telescoping steering wheel.

I've got a 2021 one on the way but I'll be charging it from a cable out the window or at my local supermarket on a slow charger until we move to our next house. At that point I'm budgeting $2.5K for a wallbox including installation and another $1K to upgrade the Leaf's ability to charge a bit faster at home. I'm around 45km each way once I factor in daycare pick-ups etc, so that's doable from a three-pin socket for now.

Looks like the LDV Ute's braked tow rating is 1500kg. Not bad for a gen one EV ute.

NordVPN

Protect your online activity with NordVPN (affiliate link).

Obraik

1964 posts

Uber Geek

#3004584 2-Dec-2022 11:24

From that video, one thing I think they did wrong with the EV was the charging overnight in Hay. Looking at Plugshare, Hay has a motel that has destination chargers. Had they stayed at that motel, the Kia driver could have plugged it in and had it charge overnight without any special waiting around being required.

Most people also aren't "racing" to get to their destination. Depending on the travel speed, that Kia is capable of driving 3-4 hours non-stop at the 110km/h limit in Aus (the lower speed limits here will give longer driving time). Most people are generally looking to stop after that much driving, so stopping to charge is not the big issue it's made out to be. The distance covered in that test is also rather atypical of a drive in New Zealand - that length of drive would typically involve a ferry crossing to get to the other island.

Looking to buy a Tesla? Use my referral link and we both get credits

MikeAqua

7619 posts

Uber Geek

#3004603 2-Dec-2022 11:39

GV27:

Looks like the LDV Ute's braked tow rating is 1500kg. Not bad for a gen one EV ute.

I looked at those but the boat is a little over 1,600kg on the trailer, bone dry and empty. Loaded with fuel, ice, gear, bait, food and drinks it can be as much as 2,500kg. For comparison most non-American utes tow 3,500kg braked. Also not a fan of LDVs generally, vs Japanese utes.

Mike

Scott3

3340 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3004612 2-Dec-2022 12:05

Batman:

diesel and EV travel 1400km in AU (2022)

diesel cost $5 more, and waited around for the EV to charge

EV even had one free charge, and had to send the diesel to look for a correct detour when one of the roads were out of order

is this the same in NZ?

put me off getting a long range EV, might stick with Leaf for town and ICE for long distance

any comments?

Few key points:

Public EV charging is not cheap. Charge.net.nz first network wide price hike (if my memory is correct) kicked in two days ago, new rates below.
85c/kWh at 16.5kWh/100km is $13.44/100km, roughly equivalent to $2.80 petrol at 4.8L/100km. So something like a Kia EV6 LR RWD, would cost roughly the same to fuel/charge as a Carmy hybrid (with the Camry having a slight edge). Basically, this means that paying the high capital cost of a long range EV that is going to get exclusively fast charged does not make financial sense. Plus your toyota / Lexus hybrid is going to save a heap of time at fast chargers. (note that some other brands of charger are a bit cheaper than charge.net.nz)

I only recommend EV's to people that can charge at home. My marginal cost of power is about 17c/kWh, about 5x cheaper than the charge.net 300kW chargers. For most people who can charge at home, the vast (90%+) majority of their charging is done at home, meaning that the cost of public charging is not a big issue for most EV owners. Family members have a 450km range EV. It might see a fast charger 2 - 3 time's a year, as AC charging covers the vast majority of their needs.
NZ is a heap smaller than Aust it is only 1057km from Cape Reinga to Wellington, so a 1400km trip is much less likely in NZ. Personally have not taken my personal car across the cook straight as it has worked out cheaper and more convenient to fly to the south island and rent a car (or course current rental car shortages could impact that decision if I had a south island holiday planned). Something like the Kia EV6 in the video should do wellington to Auckland with a single 25min charge stop in Taupo, and roughly half the power coming from cheaper home / AC charging. (southbound trip might need two stops, or a longer charge in taupo (top 20% is slower to charge)
Petrol & Diesel is cheaper in aussie, and depending on location (home) power is comparable or more expensive.
Aust has a lot more 110km/h limit roads than NZ (and some 130 in NT), higher speeds mean lower efficiency and less range.
Pairing a cheaper 24kWh / 30kWh leaf with a non-plug-in car is what we do in our household. We want two cars in the household anyway, and since we brought the leaf, the SUV only gets used when we need two cars at once, or need something the leaf doesn't have (roof rails, towbar, more cargo space, AWD, Long range). I suspect the numbers wouldn't work if the leaf was going to be an additional car due to fixed ownership costs like insurance, rego, WOF, etc.
NZ's charge network is a lot better than Aussies. (and being a long skinny country helps a bit too).

mudguard:

...

Kind of reminds me of the old Falcadore Wagon debate. Kiwis bought them for the one big summer road trip per year rather than getting some more appropriately sized and just renting a car for the big trip.

On the renting a car for a big summer road trip, this is often talked up as a potential solution. In some cases it can be a great option, especially for those who like to holiday in places that are impossible or expensive / inconvenient to drive to, like Overseas, or the the other island, and those who like to holiday at off peak times. However for many it is not a great option for many reasons:

Many will do multiple trips a year.
During holiday period's (Christmas, easter, long weekends), demand on larger rental vehicles is high, This is often reflected an a combination of vehicles being sold out, and very high prices. This summer the situation is partially harsh, due to rental car companies selling down their fleets, and shortages / wait times of new cars. Ace, Apex, Hertz completly sold out (all vehicle sizes) for downtown Auckland.
Cost. I picked the first week of Feb. For apex you are looking at $209 / day for a Fortuner or similar (Or $249 for a 8 seat imax if it wasn't sold out). If you need a big car for 21 days a year (at $209 a day), this is going to cost $4,389 (or $4,841 if you take the zero excess option). For many this alone would cover the cost of using a large car as a daily driver.
Relatively hard to find rental car's with towbars if need that.
Other options roof racks (outside of ski season) / roof box not really viable with rental cars
Personal preference of using familiar car on long trip
Inconvenience of booking and picking up a rental car (especially if there is no location near you).

Net result of the above is that most people are best to buy a car that can handle that summer holiday trip, and simply deal with it's bulk and running cost's for the rest of the year, rather than renting.

GV27

5429 posts

Uber Geek

#3004613 2-Dec-2022 12:06

MikeAqua:

I looked at those but the boat is a little over 1,600kg on the trailer, bone dry and empty. Loaded with fuel, ice, gear, bait, food and drinks it can be as much as 2,500kg. For comparison most non-American utes tow 3,500kg braked. Also not a fan of LDVs generally, vs Japanese utes.

Hard to know who will blink first with the Japanese ones. Likely we'll see a Ssangyong EV ute before we see one from Japan.

tchart

2299 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#3004619 2-Dec-2022 12:14

GV27:

I think it's fair to assume that most people would take a trade-in on an EV, so if you had a $10K car to trade into begin with, you're looking at $30K for your loan.

But that sthe thing right, low income earners would drive their current car into the ground so unlikley to have a $10K car to trade in. I would assume low or no deposit applies.

tchart

2299 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#3004621 2-Dec-2022 12:16

GV27:

EV specific financing from UDC is currently 8.2%.

As per mine and other comments, this likley doesnt apply to people who rent and or have bad credit.

tchart

2299 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#3004623 2-Dec-2022 12:18

elpenguino:

Installing extra chargers in places with normally low populations will not be good ROI - who will do it as a charity?

As seen in the video, a single charger at one of their stops in the sticks. He was on 1% battery so was likley there for a while (overnight?) so what does everyone else do?

alasta

6240 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Subscriber

#3004625 2-Dec-2022 12:28

Scott3:

On the renting a car for a big summer road trip, this is often talked up as a potential solution. In some cases it can be a great option, especially for those who like to holiday in places that are impossible or expensive / inconvenient to drive to, like Overseas, or the the other island, and those who like to holiday at off peak times.

Rental cars are a real pain because you have to get to the pick up location, wait in the queue, go through a whole lot of paperwork, assess the options for insurance excess reduction, inspect the car for pre-existing damage, familiarise yourself with the vehicle, and go through adjusting the seat/steering wheel/mirrors.

Advocates of electric vehicles always seem to assume that people use their cars for the ideal EV use case - i.e. 'daily commuting'. For me walking and public transport is fine for my daily needs, but the car is still worth having so that I don't have to stuff around with rentals for trips out of town.

Insanekiwi

511 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3004627 2-Dec-2022 12:33

Batman:

diesel and EV travel 1400km in AU (2022)

diesel cost $5 more, and waited around for the EV to charge

EV even had one free charge, and had to send the diesel to look for a correct detour when one of the roads were out of order

is this the same in NZ?

put me off getting a long range EV, might stick with Leaf for town and ICE for long distance

any comments?

Exactly what you said. I know a few have converted to full EV household, I decided to sell one of the Teslas and kept Mazda CX-9 for long distance and ski trips.

However, the Youtube clip only represents what you might do a few times a year. As a daily grind (especially in NZ), it makes sense to zoom around (not Mazda) in EVs as long as your daily km is less than 100km (Leaf) ~ 250km (other newer cars with bigger battery capacity). I would personally only keep EVs if I could charge at home. If I had no charging capability at home, my choice would be Toyota / Lexus hybrid of some sort. If you have solar generation, then it works as your solar battery in some ways (saving the excess). I have to say though, the diesel consumption of Q5 was quite impressive - it certainly wouldn't be like that if you did city driving of 1400km with lots of stop and start, EV6 would have clearly won that round.

MikeAqua

7619 posts

Uber Geek

#3004633 2-Dec-2022 12:46

alasta:

Rental cars are a real pain because you have to get to the pick up location, wait in the queue, go through a whole lot of paperwork, assess the options for insurance excess reduction, inspect the car for pre-existing damage, familiarise yourself with the vehicle, and go through adjusting the seat/steering wheel/mirrors.

Advocates of electric vehicles always seem to assume that people use their cars for the ideal EV use case - i.e. 'daily commuting'. For me walking and public transport is fine for my daily needs, but the car is still worth having so that I don't have to stuff around with rentals for trips out of town.

And if you are renting during peak holiday periods you are going to pay a lot.

Mike

GV27

5429 posts

Uber Geek

#3004634 2-Dec-2022 12:47

tchart:

As per mine and other comments, this likley doesnt apply to people who rent and or have bad credit.

Probably not likely to be in the market for any sort of new car then, are they?

Scott3

3340 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3004638 2-Dec-2022 12:52

shk292:

...

Maybe the green future involves keeping all these little boats closer to the launching point? Much nicer having the boat at a marine anyway ;)

As recreational power boating goes, trailer boats are in general much more green (and cheaper to maintain) than marina boats. Anti fouling alone is both expensive and has an environmental impact.

In this case, is sounds like there is one launching spot that is used, but in many cases Trailer boats can be launched closer to the destination, and moving them on land is a lot more efficient than on the water. For comparison a Surtees workmate 540 with a honda 80hp, which is smaller than the boat in question uses 29.7L/100km at its most effichent planing speed of 20 knotts.

MikeAqua:

Yes, although nowhere near where I park my commute vehicle. The car that fits in the garage isn't the commuter. But I digress as that wasn't the question. The question was something like who really drives a 100km+ commute. I do. And my commute vehicle is also the vehicle I use for towing, which I would do two to three times per month.

I did recently try a neighbours leaf for what was supposed to be a month, while they were overseas I lasted about a week. Hated that car. I also had to relocate the boat to get the leaf near a garage window, which isn't a long term solution. Thats all to do with layout of our driveway and garage.

There are couple of EVs I really, really like the look (F-150 lightning and Riviera) but I imagine they are $200k plus, which is simply unaffordable. if I wasn't towing the Audi e-tron GT looks nice, but again, I'm dreaming on the dollar front.

In the current marketplace, there are two workable EV options for your duty, and both are very expensive.

Used Tesla model X (2250kg tow rating). $98,000 for a 2017 100kWh AWD
New BMW iX (2500kg tow rating) $170k - $204k (and the rule of thumb of loosing 2/3rds of your range for big towing, you would likely need the $ 238,900 version with the 105.2 kWh battery to do a 120km roundtrip while towing).

Personally, I would have no issue using such a valuable car for boat launching (not that I could fund one), but I imaging others would want to keep them away from the salt.

Also running costs savings are going to be eaten into by things like the cost of expensive tires (vs one of the common Thai built Utes or ute-based SUV's).

And of course for the charge location, with enough $$, you can have a charger on a pedestal installed anywhere within reason on your property. But this does force up the capital outlay.

I don't think ford has any plans to produce a RHD F150, and conversions are always expensive (like the Ram 1500). Also the F150 lighting is going to be so heavy (2989kg empty for the big battery + 885kg payload), that you will be up into truck weights (over 3500kg GVM), meaning at 90km/h max speed limit which is not going to be ideal for a commuter.

The Rivian is very attractive, and was ment to come in under 3,500kg gross. Sadly it seems to have missed that, and be at 3870.05 for the 135kWh versions (both ute and suv).

We might need some legislation changes if pure EV 4wd Utes and upper larger SUV's are to be viable here.

tchart

2299 posts

Uber Geek

ID Verified

Trusted

#3004646 2-Dec-2022 13:16

GV27:

Probably not likely to be in the market for any sort of new car then, are they?

Correct thats the whole point. No amount of saying its cheaper to run or cheaper in the long run will enable lower income families to get an EV.

There wont be mass adoption until the masses can afford an EV. Hence we will have to wait and see what the second hand market looks like in 5-10 years time.

Given cars and EVs in general are going up in price, its unlikley that in 5 years the market will suddenly be flooded with affordable EV's.

GV27

5429 posts

Uber Geek

#3004651 2-Dec-2022 13:42

tchart:

Given cars and EVs in general are going up in price, its unlikley that in 5 years the market will suddenly be flooded with affordable EV's.

But there are already affordable EVs on the used market. That's the point. They're just not that good anymore, and getting quite old.

But they'll still comfortably handle an urban commute. And as new models enter the market and people trade up, the quality of what is on offer for the same money will improve dramatically. Look at the leap between an OG Leaf and a ZE1.

1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5