RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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1694 posts

Uber Geek

#3128464 16-Sep-2023 09:04

BEVs are still a looong way from 50% of light vehicle sales.

Its gonna take a while for BEVs to be significant part of our car fleet.
So speedier conversion may await Japanese EV uptake and their hand me downs accelerating.
Future seems to be very Hybrid for a good while yet.
Good news is that at least Hybrids will make our fleet more efficient and lower fuel use so steps in right direction.

The tricky side if the equation is bulk transport, and the thinking that trains and coastal shipping is passe.

https://evdb.nz/ev-percentage-nz

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Wheelbarrow01

1445 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

Chorus

#3128735 17-Sep-2023 02:46

Mantis:

Just renewed my car rego and noticed that all admin fees are increasing from 1 October 2023. Online fees for RUC's is increasing from $4.80 to $12.44, so for those buying 1000 km at a time ($76 + fees), this fee will account for 14% of the total cost, which again will disproportionately affect those on lower incomes purchasing smaller amounts.

These incoming admin fee increases are obscene for what is an entirely automated transaction. Imagine your your power company charging $12 to electronically read your meter and post a bill to you....

kiwifidget

"Cookie"
2861 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3128742 17-Sep-2023 07:50

Is it not a misnomer to call a car carting a whopping big battery around inside them a "light vehicle"?

Himself says a lot of electric cars are heavier than his diesel ute.

Delete cookies?! Are you insane?!

traderstu

296 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3128743 17-Sep-2023 07:56

Hear what you are saying. just bought a little Lexus ev and was surprised to learn that it was only 100kg lighter than my Prado.

But by definition, a light vehicle is up to 3500kg.

HarmLessSolutions

547 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3128747 17-Sep-2023 08:28

Wheelbarrow01:

These incoming admin fee increases are obscene for what is an entirely automated transaction. Imagine your your power company charging $12 to electronically read your meter and post a bill to you....

The admin fee is most likely already factored into your electricity account. The fixed daily charge?

https://www.harmlesssolutions.co.nz/

BlakJak

1097 posts

Uber Geek

Trusted

#3128748 17-Sep-2023 08:36

kiwifidget:
Is it not a misnomer to call a car carting a whopping big battery around inside them a "light vehicle"?

Himself says a lot of electric cars are heavier than his diesel ute.

I realise you want to gripe about "whopping big batteries", but 3.5T is nothing compared to actual "heavy" vehicles

https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/vehicle-types/vehicle-classes-and-standards/vehicle-dimensions-and-mass/heavy-rigid-vehicles/

No signature to see here, move along...

Dingbatt

6421 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3128751 17-Sep-2023 09:32

kiwifidget:

Is it not a misnomer to call a car carting a whopping big battery around inside them a "light vehicle"?

Himself says a lot of electric cars are heavier than his diesel ute.

Must be a Triton because most utes, like the Ranger and Hilux, are heavier than my Model 3.

If you really believe that weight should be the sole determinant of RUC then you would need to use the GVM for vehicles rather than the kerb weight. So most utes are 3T.

Where would you suggest a ‘light’ vehicle be set at? 1000kg? 1500kg? 2000kg?

How about trailers? If weight is the only determinant, should ‘light domestic’ trailers also pay RUCs? Or would you need to look at the towing vehicle’s GCM*? In that case 5-6T?

*If fitted with a towbar.

Edit: Using KrazyKid’s figures from a couple of pages back, my old Camry hybrid that was replaced by my Model 3 contributed 4.5c/km in fuel excise. In which case I’m a little disappointed to pay 7.6c/km to “go green(er)”.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

kiwifidget

"Cookie"
2861 posts

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Lifetime subscriber

#3128755 17-Sep-2023 10:11

Actually I'm not particularly bothered about it, I was just echoing a sentiment that Himself made that made me a bit curious.

Turns out curiosity kills cats and makes the internet turn on you.

Delete cookies?! Are you insane?!

Dingbatt

6421 posts

Uber Geek

Lifetime subscriber

#3128760 17-Sep-2023 10:40

kiwifidget:

Actually I'm not particularly bothered about it, I was just echoing a sentiment that Himself made that made me a bit curious.

Turns out curiosity kills cats and makes the internet turn on you.

I apologise if it came across as aggressive, that was not my purpose.

It’s more that the whole thing has the capacity to be a huge can of worms.
What needs to be made clear is what the RUC and/or Fuel Excise is actually to be used for.

Is it to maintain roads and/or build new ones?
Is it to promote and subsidise public transport?
Is it to build cycleways/pathways?
Is it to be used for road safety improvements?

I would contend that 1 and 4 are what a tax to use the road should be spent on. Why should someone who lives in rural Northland subsidise bus passengers in Auckland? Or pay for some urban dweller to have a nice bike ride? If you want to achieve 2 and 3 then they need to be levied at a more localised level with things like tolls or congestion charges. Or a “save the world” emissions tax on fuel.

“We’ve arranged a society based on science and technology, in which nobody understands anything about science technology. Carl Sagan 1996

Bung

5444 posts

Uber Geek

Subscriber

#3128762 17-Sep-2023 10:49

Dingbatt:
If you really believe that weight should be the sole determinant of RUC then you would need to use the GVM for vehicles rather than the kerb weight. So most utes are 3T.

For "light" vehicles call it an accessibility charge. If it's only road damage the Transport Federation will only want to pay to maintain the roads linking ports and distribution hubs and a few others. Like Fonterra using GPS data to exclude travel on private roads.

traderstu

296 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3128770 17-Sep-2023 12:23

Dingbatt:

I apologise if it came across as aggressive, that was not my purpose.

It’s more that the whole thing has the capacity to be a huge can of worms.
What needs to be made clear is what the RUC and/or Fuel Excise is actually to be used for.

Is it to maintain roads and/or build new ones?
Is it to promote and subsidise public transport?
Is it to build cycleways/pathways?
Is it to be used for road safety improvements?

I would contend that 1 and 4 are what a tax to use the road should be spent on. Why should someone who lives in rural Northland subsidise bus passengers in Auckland? Or pay for some urban dweller to have a nice bike ride? If you want to achieve 2 and 3 then they need to be levied at a more localised level with things like tolls or congestion charges. Or a “save the world” emissions tax on fuel.

Interesting read here. RUC and FED are paid into the National Land Transport Fund. By law, NLTF money has to be invested in land transport. Then we engage a whole lot of consultants to work up a National Land Transport Policy. To this end, the NLTP includes regional and national activities in areas like: public transport, road maintenance and improvements (including for state highways), walking and cycling, road policing and promoting road safety. (much like what you said) But then if you read further you discover that those in power have decided that for the land transport system to work effectively, we need to ensure all travel options are playing to their strengths. "A well-maintained rail network contributes many benefits for people in New Zealand, including reduced congestion and emissions, and improved safety and resilience across the land transport system". A Rail Network Investment Programme. The Minister of Transport has approved the first RNIP at a cost of an initial $1.27 billion from the NLTF approved for rail activities contained in the RNIP. This would be fine if rail paid into the fund (hubodometers on trains?) but I see no mention of this.

So, what started as a quaint little user pays scheme designed to pay for the upkeep and improvement of our roads has morphed into a slush fund dipped into at the whim of the geniuses in Wellington. No wonder there's nothing left for fixing potholes.

As I see it, we will inevitably move to a system of RUC for all. As has been correctly pointed out the FED collected on a small fuel efficient petrol car is much less than the RUC on a light diesel vehicle. Watch out for a tax increase by stealth.

A bit ranty, sorry

Qazzy03

231 posts

Master Geek

#3128772 17-Sep-2023 12:50

traderstu:

Watch out for a tax increase by stealth.

I never understand this type of comment. Taxation is the mechanism for our current framework of social, community, nation building. Sure we can debate where and how tax is used. Getting everyone to agree on what tax should be used for is a total nightmare and is basically dictated in elections in local body elections and nation level ones.

This whole thread is about where and how RUC "tax/levy/money" should be applied and the impacts it might have in the future.

For the the most part it seems people accept the requirement of taxation. I don't want to go off topic but I do think it is good to have a discussion around a possible change to RUC and what that might mean.

logo

609 posts

Ultimate Geek

Trusted

#3128775 17-Sep-2023 13:42

Qazzy03:

traderstu:

Watch out for a tax increase by stealth.

I never understand this type of comment. Taxation is the mechanism for our current framework of social, community, nation building. Sure we can debate where and how tax is used. Getting everyone to agree on what tax should be used for is a total nightmare and is basically dictated in elections in local body elections and nation level ones.

This whole thread is about where and how RUC "tax/levy/money" should be applied and the impacts it might have in the future.

For the the most part it seems people accept the requirement of taxation. I don't want to go off topic but I do think it is good to have a discussion around a possible change to RUC and what that might mean.

Reminds me of what a client once told me when trying to get a better deal - "I don't mind you making money, I just don't want you making money from me"

MikeAqua

7619 posts

Uber Geek

#3129285 19-Sep-2023 10:01

Fantastic idea. That would cut the cost of petrol for non-road uses by about 30%. Each time I filled my boat, I'd be $100 better off. I could use that to buy more tackle.

We would also need some lighter RUC classes to be introduced. Currently everything under 3,500kg pays the same rate, which would suck for owners of compact hatchbacks.

If every vehicle had to pay RUC, then there would hopefully be a case for someone like e-road to provide an electronic RUC solution, as they do for commercial vehicles. Great system that.

Mike

MikeAqua

7619 posts

Uber Geek

#3129287 19-Sep-2023 10:07

SirHumphreyAppleby:

I'm in support of this approach, but I don't like the idea of putting more things on the windscreen obstructing vision. I also don't consider it useful, as the only way to enforce that in the wild is to peer in the windscreen, and I'm going to assume anyone doing that is up to no good.

My preferred approach would be to just be billed by NZTA after the WoF is issued or when vehicles are sold. They could collect this in one lump sum (cheaper), or allow people to pay over 6/12 months, depending on how long it is until their next WoF. As an incentive to move to more efficient vehicles, the government could forgive the debt (up to a limit) for the previous usage period.

Cold turkey approach. Trying to do some sort of phased introduction would be expensive, so just cut your losses and go for it IMO.

I currently have four of those RUC/Rego holders on my SUV. They are for Rego, RUC and annual passes for two boat ramps. In that location by the passenger side A-pillar I don't find they obstruct my view. I find the WOF and service stickers more annoying.

Mike

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