RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

Forums › Transport (cars, bikes and boats) › RUCs to apply to all vehicles (incl EVs), replacing road user tax on petrol

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7611 posts

Uber Geek

#3142735 4-Oct-2023 13:49

SaltyNZ:

Those work vehicles also retail in the $80K range, so not exactly a poor-man's vehicle either. But anyone who is buying them for work is also claiming back GST and probably FBT etc. dropping at least $11K off the price to begin with - quite a bit more than the EV rebate. "Work" vehicles are a lot cheaper.

Sure but the govt isn't subsidising ICE work vehicles more than any other business asset. And if a business bought an EV (or any vehicle) it would enjoy the same tax treatment, plus a celan car subsidy.

FYI my SUV cost just under 60k in 2020. At the time I could have gotten a Ute with lockable tray-lid and roll bar for about the same price.

Mike

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evilengineer

441 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3142739 4-Oct-2023 13:57

MikeAqua:

Also, the subsidy was being used to purchase a lot of vehicle most people simply can't afford. I think last month the Tesla Y was NZ's most popular vehicle. $72k car with ~10% subsidy for rich buyers.

It's funny how some "subsidies" for rich people are acceptable and some aren't, particularly when comes to the tax system.

Regardless, on a purely pragmatic level it is demonstrably working when it comes to its stated aim of encouraging the uptake of more efficient vehicles compared to the gas guzzling alternatives.

MikeAqua:

And the lack of equivalent vehicles for those who need a ute for work vehicles. The few light-commercial EVs available have poor range when empty and lamentably poor range with a significant load.

There is also the less significant issue of utes/SUVs that are owned for recreational pursuits. If we're at a point where we are saying those pursuits are no longer viable, that's a lot of socio-economic and leisure activity out the window. You'd also want to look at where that investment and leisure time is displaced into, and the effects of that.

Almost nobody needs a ute as a work vehicle and that includes most tradies. You don't see many sparkies driving off road in Auckland.

Back in the day tradies drove white vans, not utes. You'd certainly get more tools and materials in a Ford Transit.

It's a total straw man argument, the fact remains that anyone genuinely in need of a ute for "commercial use" and who can demonstrate as much to the IRD gets to claim depreciation and the like against it anyway.

As for recreational pursuits, nobody needs to tow a boat from Hamilton to Raglan every weekend but plenty do.

Its a lifestyle choice, just like smoking and drinking is a lifestyle choice.

Nobody is saying people can't do these things, but why shouldn't they be expected to contribute towards the resultant costs to society in the form of taxes/duties and the like?

MikeAqua

7611 posts

Uber Geek

#3142742 4-Oct-2023 14:04

afe66: Farmers moaning they can't get an EV ute so are being denied a potential benefit....

Ok can I wri e off the gst on my car or depreciate it too.

There seem to be lots of business UTEs driving around with kids seats in... OK maybe they are paying fringe benefit tax for weekend use but some how I doubt it

The farmers' complaint is not that they are missing out on a subsidy. Their complaint is that they are paying taxed for purchasing suitable vehicles when EVs suitable for their use-case aren't available. Then that tax is being used to subsidise people buying luxury EVs.

That complaint would also apply to a number of trade vehicles or anyone who tows something for work.

And yes ,you too an get your GST back and depreciate your vehilce. Throw absolutely everything you have into a risky and difficult seven day per week business that is also your family's home.

I see lots if business vehicles used to transport kids around. Two people in my street do this (in sign written cars). Private use that is incidental to business use is exempt from FBT.

I'm no expert on FBT but I understand weekend use is FBT exempt if the person is on call, which for a farmer or business owner is often 24/7. In my experience farming is hard. It's easier and less stressful to work for someone else and just bank that regular paycheck.

Mike

SaltyNZ

6919 posts

Uber Geek

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2degrees

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#3142745 4-Oct-2023 14:09

MikeAqua:

Their complaint is that they are paying taxed for purchasing suitable vehicles when EVs suitable for their use-case aren't available.

Well, sorry, but that's how taxes work. I paid taxes that went towards UFB, but there will never be any fibre in my area. I pay taxes towards the health system, but I have private insurance. I pay taxes toward the justice system, but I will never qualify for legal aid. I pay taxes that go towards subsidies for farms, but I'm not a farmer.

I do not give a **** whether farmers think they're hard done by because there are subsidies on EVs but they can't buy an EV. Get over it.

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Dratsab

3932 posts

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#3142827 4-Oct-2023 17:28

MikeAqua: Then that tax is being used to subsidise people buying luxury EVs.

You need to get over this complete BS trope, and the 'rich buyers' one. The subsidy applies to vehicles < $80k, luxury EV's cost far more than this. I think you'll find that [probably] most people are taking out loans or are financing buying their EV's.

HarmLessSolutions

546 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3142829 4-Oct-2023 17:45

MikeAqua: Then that tax is being used to subsidise people buying luxury EVs.

We purchased a 2016 Leaf a couple of months ago to replace our older Leaf. We were refunded $3507.50 on the purchase price of $16,500.

So, under your reasoning our Leaf that cost us $13,000 after refund is a "luxury EV". Your Argument is Invalid.

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alasta

6231 posts

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#3142839 4-Oct-2023 18:39

Does that mean that the subsidy applies to the sale of second hand cars? Surely if a subsidy is paid out every time a car changes ownership then that would be open to abuse, unless there is some limit on ownership turnover?

HarmLessSolutions

546 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3142840 4-Oct-2023 18:49

alasta:

Does that mean that the subsidy applies to the sale of second hand cars? Surely if a subsidy is paid out every time a car changes ownership then that would be open to abuse, unless there is some limit on ownership turnover?

No. The 2016 Leaf we bought was a fresh import not previously registered in New Zealand so CCD was claimed after we registered it.

On this subject though expect to see a lot of CCD claims coming from car sales yards for vehicles in stock if an announcement is made that the CCD is going to finish, if not sooner. Register those vehicles and claim the CCD would be a wise move. Whether they then pass that discount on to the eventual owner is debateable though I guess.

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boosacnoodle

651 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3142841 4-Oct-2023 18:59

HarmLessSolutions: A dongle that connects to the EV's OBD port is a far more efficient and less liable to corruption (by accident or intent) than a primitive meter attached to a vehicle's wheel. It also presents huge opportunities in terms of levying the likes of congestion charges and deducting off road usage, and in automating the data collection and payment processes.

Wouldn't meet the current criteria - it would not be tamper evident. You could simply remove it.

HarmLessSolutions

546 posts

Ultimate Geek

#3142847 4-Oct-2023 19:55

boosacnoodle:

HarmLessSolutions: A dongle that connects to the EV's OBD port is a far more efficient and less liable to corruption (by accident or intent) than a primitive meter attached to a vehicle's wheel. It also presents huge opportunities in terms of levying the likes of congestion charges and deducting off road usage, and in automating the data collection and payment processes.

Wouldn't meet the current criteria - it would not be tamper evident. You could simply remove it.

Wouldn't doing that just delay transmission of the distance data until the next WOF, when the fitment of a dongle could be a part of the WOF checks?

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weasel13

32 posts

Geek

#3142966 5-Oct-2023 08:53

evilengineer:
Just the stereotypical Jeremy Clarkson/Mike Hoskins view that EVs are somehow effeminate and only driven by pinko-leftie tree huggers.

That and the warped right wing idea of "freedom" that says you should be able to do whatever the hell you like, including driving comically oversized gas guzzling vehicles through the centre of town, regardless of how selfish that behaviour may be.

Yes, at some point EVs need to pay RUCs. But with all the talk on this thread of charging EVs more because of their higher curb weight I would content that Utes should also receive a special classification and be charged a premium rate to cover their public nuisance.

You have such a hatred for utes it is laughable. You do realize that there is no 4wd ev ute on the market.

What about utes makes them a significantly higher public nuisance? Is it their size in which case new ev utes should have the same special significantly higher rate as you put it.

Or is it their fuel economy? They are more economical than some other vehicles on the roads often driven by those that can't afford to upgrade. Should they have to pay a significantly higher public nuisance ruc as you put it?

I love my ute and realize it costs more to run than my ev. The amount of stuff I can throw on the tray without having to tow a trailer makes it worthwhile and equates to money well spent.

weasel13

32 posts

Geek

#3142967 5-Oct-2023 08:57

SaltyNZ:
MikeAqua:

Their complaint is that they are paying taxed for purchasing suitable vehicles when EVs suitable for their use-case aren't available.

Well, sorry, but that's how taxes work. I paid taxes that went towards UFB, but there will never be any fibre in my area. I pay taxes towards the health system, but I have private insurance. I pay taxes toward the justice system, but I will never qualify for legal aid. I pay taxes that go towards subsidies for farms, but I'm not a farmer.

I do not give a **** whether farmers think they're hard done by because there are subsidies on EVs but they can't buy an EV. Get over it.

Their issue isn't with taxation going towards subsidies for EVs their complaint is that it is a targeted tax not general taxation.

Do any of your example relate to a targeted tax or are they all general taxation? At least use a directly comparable example

SaltyNZ

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#3142970 5-Oct-2023 09:00

weasel13:

What about utes makes them a significantly higher public nuisance? Is it their size in which case new ev utes should have the same special significantly higher rate as you put it.

Yes, that's a great idea.

Or is it their fuel economy? They are more economical than some other vehicles on the roads often driven by those that can't afford to upgrade.

Assuming you mean minibuses/vans then generally no, they're about the same, as you can see by looking up the fees.

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SaltyNZ

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2degrees

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#3142973 5-Oct-2023 09:02

weasel13: Their issue isn't with taxation going towards subsidies for EVs their complaint is that it is a targeted tax not general taxation.

Do any of your example relate to a targeted tax or are they all general taxation? At least use a directly comparable example

Yes, it's targeted at polluting vehicles. They buy polluting vehicles. Therefore they pay the targeted tax. Makes sense to me.

iPad Pro 11" + iPhone 15 Pro Max + 2degrees 4tw!

These comments are my own and do not represent the opinions of 2degrees.

weasel13

32 posts

Geek

#3142975 5-Oct-2023 09:06

SaltyNZ:

Assuming you mean minibuses/vans then generally no, they're about the same, as you can see by looking up the fees.

You do realize that there is a maximum fee so looking up fees is not relevant. Some of those in example you provide don't even have co2 listed

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